WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:14.520 Okay, so welcome to our next talk by Water, who's going to talk us about Nostro notes 00:14.520 --> 00:20.400 and other stuff transmitted by Relays, please help me give them a warm welcome. 00:21.400 --> 00:26.400 Thank you everybody, thank you for being here. 00:26.400 --> 00:28.400 I'm going to talk about Nostro. 00:28.400 --> 00:34.400 This is, I think the first time somebody's talking about Nostro, like on a stage, outside 00:34.400 --> 00:40.400 of our little Nostro bubble, we have our little Nostro events and conferences and stuff, 00:40.400 --> 00:45.400 but this time it's like for general audience and open source developers at that, so that's pretty cool. 00:46.400 --> 00:50.400 I'm going to be standing mostly behind my laptop, unfortunately, because I'm going to be 00:50.400 --> 00:55.400 spate running through my slides. You can basically ignore the slides, just listen to my talk. 00:55.400 --> 01:00.400 I'm going to do that in order to make sure that I'm keeping on track and on pace, so I keep 01:00.400 --> 01:05.400 time to answer a bunch of questions. So please keep your questions in mind, come up with 01:05.400 --> 01:09.400 questions and we'll have a bit of a discussion afterwards. 01:09.400 --> 01:15.400 So because this is like Nostro outside of its own little environment, I'm going to do the 01:15.400 --> 01:24.400 obligatory show of hands thing. So please raise your hand if you've heard of Nostro before. 01:24.400 --> 01:33.400 All right, and keep your hand up if and only if you've used Nostro before. 01:34.400 --> 01:39.400 Okay, and you can keep your hand up if you think you understand Nostro. 01:39.400 --> 01:44.400 All right, perfect. Very quickly about me, about the customs. 01:44.400 --> 01:51.400 I love Starker, brute war, and if you wonder why on the guy that's standing here, that's 01:51.400 --> 01:56.400 hardly the reason, and for all the rest that just just go with it. 01:56.400 --> 02:02.400 Okay, let's go. So this presentation, I'm mostly going to be talking about three things like the 02:02.400 --> 02:08.400 story has like three parts. First, I'm going to be focusing on this paradigm shift. 02:08.400 --> 02:15.400 From that, we're going to flow into Nostro, and then I'm going to try to argue why I think this is actually going to work. 02:15.400 --> 02:22.400 There was a part before this that I mostly just cut out in the interest of time that I'm shortly going to address right now, 02:22.400 --> 02:25.400 or not right now, we're just going to talk about Nostro. 02:25.400 --> 02:33.400 So Nostro notes and other stuff transmitted by Relays was invented by some guy at the end of 2019, 02:33.400 --> 02:41.400 and the opening statement pretty much sums it up, which is it's the simplest open protocol that is able to create 02:41.400 --> 02:45.400 a censorship-resistant global social network once and for all. 02:45.400 --> 02:49.400 It doesn't rely on trusted central servers, hence it is resilient. 02:49.400 --> 02:53.400 It is based on cryptographic keys and signatures, so it is temporary proof. 02:53.400 --> 02:59.400 It does not rely on peer-to-peer techniques, therefore it works. 02:59.400 --> 03:05.400 So briefly, I'm going to talk about platforms because it's the social media thing, 03:05.400 --> 03:10.400 and the reason I cut it out is because all the problems with social media and the central platforms 03:10.400 --> 03:15.400 are pretty much top of mind, and I guess with this audience, most people understand what's going on. 03:15.400 --> 03:19.400 So, why do we use these platforms in the first place, 03:19.400 --> 03:22.400 well, apparently, because hosting websites too hard, right? 03:22.400 --> 03:25.400 We could have all just hosted our own personal website and do stuff by that way. 03:25.400 --> 03:29.400 We didn't, we all went to one particular website, they Facebook or whatever, 03:29.400 --> 03:31.400 and started to make pages there. 03:31.400 --> 03:33.400 So, what do these platforms actually do? 03:33.400 --> 03:35.400 In general, they do three main things. 03:35.400 --> 03:37.400 They manage identity and networks, right? 03:37.400 --> 03:41.400 So, this is your account and the people you follow and people following you. 03:41.400 --> 03:44.400 They host data, so this is your physical infrastructure, 03:44.400 --> 03:48.400 for making sure that people get the pictures and videos and whatever. 03:48.400 --> 03:52.400 And the last part I call indexing, so this is your search. 03:52.400 --> 03:57.400 These are your suggestion algorithms and your feed, all that type of stuff. 03:57.400 --> 04:01.400 So, what is the result of the fact that we're all using these platforms? 04:01.400 --> 04:03.400 Is that they've captured network effect, right? 04:03.400 --> 04:06.400 That's where the value is, everybody's there, because everybody's there. 04:06.400 --> 04:09.400 But we also incur this censorship risk, right? 04:09.400 --> 04:12.400 We're at the behest of these central platforms, and they can kick us off, 04:12.400 --> 04:16.400 so our identity and our network and our data, et cetera. 04:16.400 --> 04:20.400 All right, so let's go into this paradigm shift. 04:20.400 --> 04:24.400 And talking about this paradigm shift, I'm talking about names, right? 04:24.400 --> 04:31.400 So, the core of the paradigm shift is use of asymmetric cryptography or public key pairs. 04:31.400 --> 04:33.400 And the thing is about names. 04:33.400 --> 04:36.400 So, there is this notion of a Zuko's triangle. 04:36.400 --> 04:40.400 It's a deal where there are three aspects you can only pick to. 04:41.400 --> 04:44.400 It's about, you have one is human meaningful, right? 04:44.400 --> 04:46.400 So, this is a name that you can understand. 04:46.400 --> 04:49.400 For instance, Bob, Bob is a very understandable name. 04:49.400 --> 04:52.400 You have this notion of the bottom left that's decentralized. 04:52.400 --> 04:55.400 This basically means that you're able to create the name yourself, 04:55.400 --> 04:59.400 instead of getting the name assigned by some central authority. 04:59.400 --> 05:04.400 And the last part at the bottom right is secure. 05:04.400 --> 05:07.400 And this means basically that the name is unique, right? 05:07.400 --> 05:10.400 But if you interact with that particular name, 05:10.400 --> 05:15.400 you're sure that you're actually interacting with that particular person and not somebody else. 05:15.400 --> 05:18.400 So, because this is a game of you can only pick to. 05:18.400 --> 05:20.400 We get like these options. 05:20.400 --> 05:23.400 So, we have human meaningful and secure. 05:23.400 --> 05:25.400 So, that's a top one. 05:25.400 --> 05:28.400 It's like official, official seal of approval. 05:28.400 --> 05:30.400 So, this is the one and only Bob, right? 05:30.400 --> 05:32.400 There's no other Bob, this is Bob. 05:32.400 --> 05:36.400 We have human meaningful and decentralized that results in others. 05:36.400 --> 05:39.400 A little quirk in this line. 05:39.400 --> 05:42.400 But it results in Bob, Bob, and another Bob, right? 05:42.400 --> 05:43.400 So, there are Bob's everywhere. 05:43.400 --> 05:44.400 It's very human meaningful. 05:44.400 --> 05:47.400 It's also very decentralized, but not very secure. 05:47.400 --> 05:50.400 And lastly, we have decentralized and secure. 05:50.400 --> 05:52.400 So, this is based on these key pairs. 05:52.400 --> 05:54.400 And that just creates this random string. 05:54.400 --> 05:57.400 Now, if we are trying to solve central platforms, 05:57.400 --> 05:59.400 we want something that is decentralized. 05:59.400 --> 06:02.400 And we also want something that is secure. 06:02.400 --> 06:07.400 So, just by sharing of elimination, we're kind of coming out at the bottom, right? 06:07.400 --> 06:10.400 So, if you want to do an English scheme, we have to have to do it this way. 06:10.400 --> 06:14.400 The thing is that public private key pairs suck. 06:14.400 --> 06:16.400 They are absolutely terrible. 06:16.400 --> 06:17.400 You shouldn't use them. 06:17.400 --> 06:18.400 We're going to use them. 06:18.400 --> 06:19.400 You shouldn't use them. 06:19.400 --> 06:20.400 And why? 06:20.400 --> 06:24.400 Because the problem is that you have this private key. 06:24.400 --> 06:25.400 This is a secret. 06:25.400 --> 06:29.400 And the thing is that you have to keep the secret super duper safe. 06:29.400 --> 06:33.400 And now, the other hand, we're trying to use it in our protocol or in our system. 06:33.400 --> 06:35.400 So, you also have to use it all the time. 06:35.400 --> 06:38.400 And these two things are in conflict, because if you want to keep something safe, 06:38.400 --> 06:39.400 you want to restrict access. 06:39.400 --> 06:43.400 And if you want to use it all the time, you want to optimize for accessibility. 06:43.400 --> 06:46.400 So, now, we want to optimize for accessibility and we want to minimize accessibility. 06:46.400 --> 06:49.400 And these two things are in conflict, obviously. 06:49.400 --> 06:51.400 So, we have to manage that. 06:51.400 --> 06:52.400 And we have to manage that. 06:52.400 --> 06:56.400 And the context that we're dealing with something that is not made for humans is made for machines. 06:56.400 --> 07:00.400 So, there are a lot of mitigating factors to this. 07:00.400 --> 07:03.400 And the interest of time, I'm not going to go into this into this now. 07:03.400 --> 07:05.400 If you have questions about it, shoot. 07:05.400 --> 07:06.400 We can talk about it. 07:06.400 --> 07:08.400 Let me take a sip of water. 07:08.400 --> 07:17.400 Now, we actually gain a bunch of this by using this system. 07:17.400 --> 07:20.400 And what we get is temper-proofing. 07:20.400 --> 07:24.400 So, when we use these cryptographic keys, we sign things, 07:24.400 --> 07:30.400 and by the fact that they're signed, we can now verify that things are actually true. 07:30.400 --> 07:33.400 And as a result, we're no longer trusting middleman. 07:33.400 --> 07:37.400 So, it doesn't matter where data comes from, if data is signed, 07:37.400 --> 07:39.400 because data is signed at the source, 07:39.400 --> 07:43.400 and can be verified at the endpoint. 07:43.400 --> 07:46.400 So, the steps that in between or where data comes from, 07:46.400 --> 07:49.400 who is carrying the data, they cannot temper with the data anymore, 07:49.400 --> 07:52.400 because otherwise it becomes invalid. 07:52.400 --> 07:57.400 And this means that it now, the data has its carrying its own context. 07:57.400 --> 07:59.400 It becomes its own little thing. 07:59.400 --> 08:03.400 And when I mean by this, I can illustrate by this how the situation works now, 08:03.400 --> 08:10.400 which is that we're kind of stuck in place in time with the question of what is an Instagram post. 08:10.400 --> 08:13.400 So, I can assure you that this is not an Instagram post. 08:13.400 --> 08:17.400 This is a picture that supposedly is an Instagram post. 08:17.400 --> 08:21.400 What makes an Instagram post an Instagram post is the fact that it came from Instagram.com. 08:21.400 --> 08:26.400 And that's the only way you can make sure that an Instagram post is an Instagram post 08:26.400 --> 08:28.400 is that it came from Instagram.com. 08:28.400 --> 08:32.400 And that that username is actually a valid username that's Instagram.com 08:32.400 --> 08:34.400 telling you that is that username. 08:34.400 --> 08:37.400 So, we're stuck in this place called Instagram.com. 08:37.400 --> 08:40.400 And we're also stuck in time, because you have this time window, 08:40.400 --> 08:43.400 up until that Instagram.com actually exists. 08:43.400 --> 08:45.400 The moment an Instagram.com doesn't exist anymore, 08:45.400 --> 08:50.400 your time window to verify that some Instagram post actually was authentic is over, right? 08:50.400 --> 08:52.400 Because the authority is dead. 08:52.400 --> 08:55.400 So, at that stage, you're lost. 08:55.400 --> 08:58.400 Now, let's get going to Noster. 08:58.400 --> 08:59.400 So, what is Noster? 08:59.400 --> 09:04.400 Noster is signed JSON over websites and of presentation. 09:04.400 --> 09:07.400 So, this is it. 09:07.400 --> 09:12.400 For the most part, we gave people papers. 09:12.400 --> 09:16.400 This also contains this thing and like a bunch of other stuff. 09:16.400 --> 09:18.400 So, this is Noster. 09:18.400 --> 09:20.400 So, this is a bunch of JSON. 09:20.400 --> 09:21.400 And we'll let's go over it. 09:21.400 --> 09:24.400 So, let's start at the second thing, which is the pub key. 09:24.400 --> 09:25.400 Right? 09:25.400 --> 09:26.400 So, these are your key pair. 09:26.400 --> 09:27.400 So, this is the pub key. 09:27.400 --> 09:30.400 And this represents the author of the event. 09:30.400 --> 09:32.400 We call these JSON things. 09:32.400 --> 09:34.400 We call them events. 09:34.400 --> 09:38.400 And the second one is the created ads. 09:38.400 --> 09:41.400 So, this is a timestamp where supposedly this event is created. 09:41.400 --> 09:43.400 The kind, the third one. 09:43.400 --> 09:46.400 The fourth one is that the kind. 09:46.400 --> 09:47.400 It's a number. 09:47.400 --> 09:51.400 It's just a way to specify what type of event it is. 09:51.400 --> 09:53.400 Events can be all kinds of things. 09:53.400 --> 09:57.400 And this is like a simple number system to reference what it's supposed to be. 09:57.400 --> 10:01.400 And then we have like the actual meat of the event like what's going on. 10:01.400 --> 10:03.400 That's separated in two parts. 10:03.400 --> 10:05.400 We have tags and we have content. 10:05.400 --> 10:09.400 Just think of tags as like structure data of men for machines. 10:09.400 --> 10:12.400 And the content like stuff that is actually men for humans. 10:12.400 --> 10:15.400 And then we go to the top. 10:15.400 --> 10:16.400 We have the ID. 10:16.400 --> 10:18.400 So, this is the event ID. 10:18.400 --> 10:22.400 And that's just basically the name of the event of the reference number for the event. 10:22.400 --> 10:23.400 Created by Hashing. 10:23.400 --> 10:25.400 Oh, we've had before. 10:25.400 --> 10:27.400 And at the bottom we have the signature. 10:27.400 --> 10:28.400 So, we take our private key. 10:28.400 --> 10:30.400 And we sign the hash. 10:30.400 --> 10:37.400 And that way, we ensure that actually we are the author that is specified in the public key. 10:37.400 --> 10:41.400 And that way, the outside world can actually verify that this event. 10:41.400 --> 10:45.400 These loss or event is authentic. 10:45.400 --> 10:46.400 All right. 10:46.400 --> 10:50.400 Now, in terms of like a protocol, you can look at the sheet. 10:50.400 --> 10:52.400 There's a bunch of things there. 10:52.400 --> 10:55.400 But for the most part, this is it. 10:55.400 --> 11:00.400 And I kind of want to go into like, is this an invention or is this a discovery? 11:00.400 --> 11:03.400 So, technically, I'm not going to do the technical argument. 11:03.400 --> 11:05.400 It is an invention. 11:05.400 --> 11:08.400 But I'm kind of arguing here that it's a discovery. 11:08.400 --> 11:12.400 For the reason that I'm started out saying, like, there's a paradigm shift. 11:12.400 --> 11:17.400 And we start this paradigm shift because we are beginning with using public private keys. 11:17.400 --> 11:21.400 And from using these public private keys, there is this logic unfolding. 11:21.400 --> 11:26.400 And the only little hurdle that we're going to have to set is that, okay, we're going to have to set it. 11:26.400 --> 11:27.400 Standard for a data format. 11:27.400 --> 11:29.400 We're going to have to set a standard for the cryptography. 11:29.400 --> 11:32.400 And we're going to have some standard for data exchange. 11:32.400 --> 11:34.400 And it just so happens to be JSON. 11:34.400 --> 11:37.400 It's a JSON chart of 56 from Schnor, and web sockets. 11:37.400 --> 11:40.400 I guess the point is that it could have been something else. 11:40.400 --> 11:42.400 It isn't, right? 11:42.400 --> 11:43.400 The point is also that it isn't. 11:43.400 --> 11:45.400 The point is that it is JSON. 11:45.400 --> 11:48.400 It is a chart of 56 from Schnor, because otherwise it's not a standard, right? 11:48.400 --> 11:50.400 So, it could have been something else. 11:50.400 --> 11:51.400 It isn't. 11:51.400 --> 11:52.400 Deal with it. 11:52.400 --> 11:54.400 If you dislike the fact that it's JSON, I'm very sorry. 11:54.400 --> 11:56.400 It's not going to change. 11:56.400 --> 11:58.400 Just do with it. 11:58.400 --> 12:01.400 I mean, the thing is, it's not that important, right? 12:01.400 --> 12:03.400 It could have been something else. 12:03.400 --> 12:04.400 It's fine. 12:04.400 --> 12:11.400 Now, you probably think to yourself, if this is the entire protocol, 12:11.400 --> 12:15.400 and people want to build like social media out of it, 12:15.400 --> 12:18.400 or other types of applications. 12:18.400 --> 12:21.400 How do you do whatever? 12:21.400 --> 12:23.400 Like, the nuss of protocol is going to respond. 12:23.400 --> 12:25.400 It's like, I don't care how you're going to do things. 12:25.400 --> 12:27.400 You'll figure it out. 12:27.400 --> 12:31.400 The protocol as such doesn't specify a whole lot of things. 12:32.400 --> 12:36.400 That's great, because it gives you room to figure out those things for yourself. 12:36.400 --> 12:39.400 I'm going to help you, because we're going to figure out. 12:39.400 --> 12:41.400 This thing has existed for a couple of years now. 12:41.400 --> 12:44.400 We figured a bunch of things out. 12:44.400 --> 12:48.400 So, let's go back to the platform thing and there are three functions, right? 12:48.400 --> 12:50.400 We have the identity in the network. 12:50.400 --> 12:51.400 We have hosting. 12:51.400 --> 12:53.400 We have indexing. 12:53.400 --> 12:56.400 And we, with now, we're using these public private keys. 12:56.400 --> 12:58.400 We basically covered two already. 12:58.400 --> 13:00.400 We cover the first one, which is identity in network. 13:00.400 --> 13:03.400 So, that's your public private keys, right? 13:03.400 --> 13:05.400 So, I can create my own identity. 13:05.400 --> 13:06.400 That's my own identity. 13:06.400 --> 13:11.400 And then I can just follow these other public keys. 13:11.400 --> 13:13.400 And that way I can maintain my own network. 13:13.400 --> 13:16.400 So, I don't need the accounting of a platform anymore for that. 13:16.400 --> 13:21.400 And because, as I explained, these nuss of events are their own self-containting. 13:21.400 --> 13:23.400 They're not location dependent anymore. 13:23.400 --> 13:25.400 We also kind of fix this hosting. 13:25.400 --> 13:27.400 In terms of let it's not centralized anymore. 13:27.400 --> 13:30.400 We can actually decentralize and distribute this hosting problem. 13:30.400 --> 13:33.400 Because it doesn't matter where stuff is hosted. 13:33.400 --> 13:35.400 It can be hosted anywhere. 13:35.400 --> 13:39.400 And then the last part in terms of the indexing, so this is your search. 13:39.400 --> 13:43.400 And your suggestion algorithms and all this type of stuff, your feed. 13:43.400 --> 13:45.400 Well, let's go into that. 13:45.400 --> 13:47.400 How do we gonna fix that? 13:47.400 --> 13:50.400 Well, first, we have like a fundamental question, right? 13:50.400 --> 13:53.400 How do we find anything, really? 13:53.400 --> 13:56.400 Especially if there's nothing specified about it. 13:56.400 --> 14:00.400 So, the safe and gray is about using these public private keys. 14:00.400 --> 14:04.400 And hashing stuff is that we're using with unique identifiers. 14:04.400 --> 14:07.400 So, we have unique identifiers for the events. 14:07.400 --> 14:10.400 We have unique names in terms of using public keys. 14:10.400 --> 14:14.400 So, because they're unique, you know what you're actually looking for. 14:14.400 --> 14:16.400 And you also recognize once you've found it, right? 14:16.400 --> 14:18.400 Because you can verify the thing. 14:18.400 --> 14:23.400 And this is very important because, let's say you have nothing to go off. 14:23.400 --> 14:26.400 This is, at least something you have, you can go off on. 14:26.400 --> 14:29.400 Is that once you've found it, you at least know that you've found it. 14:29.400 --> 14:33.400 And then we can build on top of that, we can just simply say, 14:33.400 --> 14:37.400 Well, I can just tell you where you can find my stuff. 14:37.400 --> 14:41.400 And I can sign that message and that way you can know that it's authentic. 14:41.400 --> 14:43.400 And that way you're not being fooled. 14:43.400 --> 14:49.400 So, the fact that things are signed, it's like, you're a different way to differentiate between 14:49.400 --> 14:51.400 SQL and noise, right? 14:51.400 --> 14:57.400 So, now we can just, I can just tell you where I can find my stuff or where you can find my stuff. 14:57.400 --> 15:00.400 And I can put that, for example, in like a public repository. 15:00.400 --> 15:05.400 Where everybody else is like a convention that everybody just puts this type of information, 15:05.400 --> 15:08.400 where you can find their stuff, onto this public repository. 15:08.400 --> 15:14.400 And now we're probably like covered 90% of the problem of where, where can you find my stuff. 15:14.400 --> 15:17.400 So, this is the basic, basic thing. 15:17.400 --> 15:21.400 We're, we're not, we don't have to create all these difficult or complex things 15:21.400 --> 15:25.400 to try to get like the 99th percentile of the problem of finding things. 15:25.400 --> 15:30.400 No, this very simple basic thing will probably cover like the most of it. 15:30.400 --> 15:33.400 And then maybe for that last part, you'll either do more effort, 15:33.400 --> 15:37.400 or we'll make more complex things, but we'll see later. 15:37.400 --> 15:43.400 So, as a small aside, well, we're talking about Nasser and Nasser is like this, 15:43.400 --> 15:45.400 Jason events, it's a bunch of text, right? 15:45.400 --> 15:51.400 But there are also other things out there in the world, like pictures and videos and files and programs and whatever. 15:51.400 --> 15:56.400 We're kind of like, in hindsight, I'm basically figured that we can do the same for that. 15:56.400 --> 15:59.400 You just hash the thing, that was a unique identifier. 15:59.400 --> 16:01.400 Therefore, it doesn't matter where it's hosted anymore. 16:01.400 --> 16:06.400 And we'll just use the same logic of giving you hints as to where you can find it. 16:06.400 --> 16:10.400 And the moment the link breaks, we'll just, we'll just re-host it somewhere else. 16:10.400 --> 16:18.400 And now we'll update the hint list and hopefully the link is healed again. 16:18.400 --> 16:24.400 So, we're not just about the location restriction, that's something I want to mention. 16:24.400 --> 16:27.400 It's also that this time dimension, right? 16:27.400 --> 16:30.400 Like I said, from Instagram.com, your stuck on Instagram.com, 16:30.400 --> 16:33.400 but also you have this time frame, the moment Instagram.com is down, 16:33.400 --> 16:39.400 your moment of verifying things, your moment, your possibility of verifying things is over. 16:39.400 --> 16:43.400 And with using this schema, that's not the case. 16:43.400 --> 16:47.400 Things can go down, things can be unhosted, and then suddenly pop up again, 16:47.400 --> 16:49.400 and you can just verify them all the same. 16:49.400 --> 16:52.400 You can put them in a clay tablet, you can put it in the ground. 16:52.400 --> 16:54.400 People in a thousand years can dig it out of the ground. 16:54.400 --> 16:56.400 They just have to type in the numbers, run the math. 16:56.400 --> 17:01.400 And if the cryptographic computation gives true, it's all fine. 17:01.400 --> 17:06.400 So, we're not restricted by this time element anymore as well. 17:06.400 --> 17:07.400 All right. 17:07.400 --> 17:11.400 So, imagine, I want you to imagine that there is this anywhere, 17:11.400 --> 17:14.400 like these non-survents can be hosted anywhere, 17:14.400 --> 17:17.400 and there is a little bunch of them, so it's other chaos. 17:17.400 --> 17:21.400 So, we're going to have like science structured data, 17:21.400 --> 17:25.400 in like this chaotic construction, it's just stuff out there. 17:25.400 --> 17:28.400 It's this mist of, of, of, sign JSON events. 17:28.400 --> 17:31.400 How are we going to make sense out of this? 17:31.400 --> 17:34.400 And I guess the basic method of doing that, 17:35.400 --> 17:40.400 in like an abstract where boils down to, is by applying these lenses. 17:40.400 --> 17:43.400 And these lenses, like the simplest lens is basically saying, 17:43.400 --> 17:47.400 I have a list of followers, a list of people that I follow. 17:47.400 --> 17:50.400 It says endpuff, which stands for Nuster Public Key, 17:50.400 --> 17:52.400 just to, to make it clear. 17:52.400 --> 17:54.400 So, this, so I have a list of people that I follow, 17:54.400 --> 17:59.400 and I use this lens to, to look through, to look at this, 17:59.400 --> 18:01.400 this, this mist of sign, sign JSON. 18:01.400 --> 18:05.400 And excuse me for using the, the old fallacy of, 18:05.400 --> 18:07.400 that vision is a projection of the eye. 18:07.400 --> 18:10.400 This is the case in my, my metaphor. 18:10.400 --> 18:14.400 And once you apply that, you can now filter out a whole bunch of stuff, 18:14.400 --> 18:19.400 and you only get the, the things that you actually were looking for. 18:19.400 --> 18:23.400 And you can, what this stuff represents, right? 18:23.400 --> 18:27.400 What these, these, the ulcer events, what this sign JSON, 18:27.400 --> 18:29.400 what this represents, can be all kinds of things. 18:29.400 --> 18:31.400 So, they, they can be tweets. 18:31.400 --> 18:32.400 They can be blog posts. 18:32.400 --> 18:33.400 They can be pictures. 18:33.400 --> 18:34.400 They can be recipes. 18:34.400 --> 18:35.400 They can be applications. 18:35.400 --> 18:36.400 They can be climbing rough. 18:36.400 --> 18:37.400 It doesn't matter. 18:37.400 --> 18:38.400 It can be all kinds of things. 18:38.400 --> 18:41.400 And the, the beauty is that you can leverage, 18:41.400 --> 18:46.400 you're a network, these lenses, to, to figure out for all these different domains. 18:46.400 --> 18:51.400 Right? So, if I'm very vested, I find like a very good network of all kinds of chefs. 18:51.400 --> 18:54.400 Right? So, I have a good, constructive lens of, 18:54.400 --> 18:55.400 I'm following all these chefs. 18:55.400 --> 18:57.400 So, I have a good way of, 18:57.400 --> 19:00.400 engaging the chaos that is recipes. 19:00.400 --> 19:03.400 I can subsequently also use these people for, 19:03.400 --> 19:05.400 when I'm doing climbing routes. 19:05.400 --> 19:09.400 Now, they're probably not as useful in the climbing routes situation, 19:09.400 --> 19:11.400 but they're still there, right? 19:11.400 --> 19:16.400 And that's, that's basically the beauty that we're now also starting to leverage our networks for all their applications. 19:16.400 --> 19:18.400 And that's something that I'm going to, 19:18.400 --> 19:20.400 essentially later on as well. 19:20.400 --> 19:23.400 Now, we're, we're kind of going to navigate, right? 19:23.400 --> 19:25.400 We're used to serve the web. 19:25.400 --> 19:30.400 I don't know how many serve people serve the web these days. 19:30.400 --> 19:33.400 But you kind of want to be able to do that. 19:33.400 --> 19:36.400 So, they're, they're basically two modes of, 19:36.400 --> 19:37.400 modes of doing this. 19:37.400 --> 19:40.400 One is end pop centric and the other is relay centric. 19:40.400 --> 19:45.400 And the thing is, I kind of already explained the first one. 19:45.400 --> 19:50.400 And because the first one was never specified anywhere, 19:50.400 --> 19:53.400 the, the creator of the protocol just assumed that, you know, 19:53.400 --> 19:56.400 this is, this is the logical way of doing things, right? 19:56.400 --> 19:57.400 Obviously. 19:57.400 --> 20:00.400 Hopefully, he's, obviously, that, as I explained them to you earlier. 20:00.400 --> 20:04.400 But apparently, it wasn't that obvious, so it had to be, like, 20:04.400 --> 20:06.400 made explicit, so now it has a name. 20:06.400 --> 20:08.400 And the name is outbox model. 20:08.400 --> 20:10.400 And it's very simple. 20:10.400 --> 20:13.400 It's just that you declare where you host your stuff, right? 20:13.400 --> 20:16.400 So in loss, so we have these, these servers we call the relays. 20:16.400 --> 20:19.400 And basically, on the left is the person who's publishing, 20:19.400 --> 20:22.400 on the right, there's the person who's following the, 20:22.400 --> 20:25.400 Pamela, and in between are the relays. 20:25.400 --> 20:28.400 And there's this whole dynamic going on with these, 20:28.400 --> 20:31.400 this relay hosting things and then subsequently banning them. 20:31.400 --> 20:35.400 And the whole thing of not being able to stock in a certain location, 20:35.400 --> 20:38.400 like not being location dependent, is that you can switch 20:38.400 --> 20:39.400 relays all the time. 20:39.400 --> 20:41.400 So the moment you get banned somewhere, 20:41.400 --> 20:44.400 someplace you can move to another place, you just update 20:44.400 --> 20:47.400 the, your list of where you host your stuff. 20:47.400 --> 20:50.400 And then the people following you can follow along with that list 20:50.400 --> 20:51.400 and keep track of you, right? 20:51.400 --> 20:53.400 They're basically don't even notice. 20:53.400 --> 20:55.400 If you automate this stuff, they basically don't even notice 20:55.400 --> 20:59.400 that there are relays banning you in this entire process. 20:59.400 --> 21:06.400 And the other way of going through things is using relay feeds. 21:06.400 --> 21:10.400 So now these servers, they can say, okay, 21:10.400 --> 21:13.400 I'm just only gonna host particular kinds of data, right? 21:13.400 --> 21:15.400 I'm only gonna host recipes. 21:15.400 --> 21:16.400 I'm only gonna host pictures. 21:16.400 --> 21:18.400 I'm only gonna host tweets. 21:18.400 --> 21:20.400 I'm only gonna host whatever type of thing. 21:21.400 --> 21:24.400 And the point is that they can use any metrics. 21:24.400 --> 21:27.400 They can also say, I can only, I'm only gonna host stuff 21:27.400 --> 21:28.400 by these people. 21:28.400 --> 21:31.400 So for example, only accredited academics, right? 21:31.400 --> 21:34.400 Only accredited academics can post to my server. 21:34.400 --> 21:37.400 Or they can only post stuff about astronomy. 21:37.400 --> 21:41.400 Or any combination of whatever you can imagine. 21:41.400 --> 21:44.400 They can create their own environment, 21:44.400 --> 21:46.400 basically like a website with a forum. 21:46.400 --> 21:50.400 And that becomes a method for you as a user 21:50.400 --> 21:54.400 to filter out things and get a feed. 21:54.400 --> 21:57.400 The beauty is that basically, 21:57.400 --> 21:59.400 Nasser is a protocol with like the whole point of 21:59.400 --> 22:02.400 his censorship resistance, but it's pro censorship. 22:02.400 --> 22:05.400 And what I mean by that is that because the user 22:05.400 --> 22:07.400 is themselves our censorship resistant, 22:07.400 --> 22:10.400 that allows relays like these hosting servers 22:10.400 --> 22:14.400 to censor and moderate in whatever way they please, right? 22:15.400 --> 22:17.400 You're not in each other's way anymore, 22:17.400 --> 22:19.400 because you're not always stuck on the central platform 22:19.400 --> 22:21.400 where you have to battle it out 22:21.400 --> 22:23.400 in order to what the policy is gonna be. 22:23.400 --> 22:25.400 Are we gonna do fact checking? 22:25.400 --> 22:26.400 Are we not gonna do fact checking? 22:26.400 --> 22:27.400 Oh, this is all this type of stuff. 22:27.400 --> 22:28.400 It doesn't matter anymore. 22:28.400 --> 22:30.400 People can just pick their own, 22:30.400 --> 22:32.400 these really can really, 22:32.400 --> 22:34.400 can pick their own policy because the users 22:34.400 --> 22:36.400 at the other hand are like flexible 22:36.400 --> 22:38.400 in how they move around, right? 22:38.400 --> 22:40.400 So now we're gonna have what we get as a result 22:40.400 --> 22:42.400 is freedom of association. 22:43.400 --> 22:45.400 Because the whole point is that when let's say 22:45.400 --> 22:47.400 I'm having an astronomy relay. 22:47.400 --> 22:49.400 And I'm looking at an astronomy relay 22:49.400 --> 22:52.400 and I see a very interesting astronomer there. 22:52.400 --> 22:53.400 I start to follow that astronomer. 22:53.400 --> 22:55.400 The moment I follow that astronomer, 22:55.400 --> 22:58.400 it's not that I'm relying on that relay anymore. 22:58.400 --> 23:01.400 I'm not relying on this little astronomy platform anymore. 23:01.400 --> 23:03.400 I now have this direct relationship 23:03.400 --> 23:05.400 with that astronomer. 23:05.400 --> 23:07.400 I have his list where he posts his stuff, right? 23:07.400 --> 23:10.400 So the moment he gets banned from the astronomer form 23:11.400 --> 23:13.400 because he has controversial opinions, 23:13.400 --> 23:16.400 I didn't lose sight of this astronomer. 23:16.400 --> 23:19.400 So this allows this puts a lot of a way 23:19.400 --> 23:23.400 of a lot of friction that we're currently involved with. 23:23.400 --> 23:26.400 There are a whole bunch of other 23:26.400 --> 23:29.400 challenges when you're trying to build a web 23:29.400 --> 23:31.400 and you're trying to build social media 23:31.400 --> 23:33.400 and you're trying to do all kinds of other things. 23:33.400 --> 23:35.400 And I guess basically the main point is that 23:35.400 --> 23:38.400 there are different places where you can tackle things. 23:38.400 --> 23:40.400 So you can tackle them client side. 23:40.400 --> 23:42.400 You can tweak things with the lenses. 23:42.400 --> 23:45.400 You can create filters locally. 23:45.400 --> 23:48.400 You can fix things on the relay side 23:48.400 --> 23:50.400 or a combination of the two. 23:50.400 --> 23:52.400 And the thing is with the client side, 23:52.400 --> 23:54.400 it doesn't necessarily have to be like the client, 23:54.400 --> 23:55.400 the user is using. 23:55.400 --> 23:56.400 You can also outsource it. 23:56.400 --> 23:58.400 And that's what we call DVM. 23:58.400 --> 23:59.400 It's data vending machines. 23:59.400 --> 24:01.400 It's basically a client somewhere else 24:01.400 --> 24:03.400 that you can ask to do a job, right? 24:03.400 --> 24:05.400 So we can imagine these lenses. 24:05.400 --> 24:07.400 You can do, let's imagine, 24:07.400 --> 24:09.400 constructing a very complicated lens where we say, 24:09.400 --> 24:13.400 okay, this is the list of people about our follow. 24:13.400 --> 24:16.400 Let's do a cluster analysis on those people 24:16.400 --> 24:18.400 in terms of how they interact with each other. 24:18.400 --> 24:21.400 And then we focus on that cluster. 24:21.400 --> 24:24.400 And then we do an association for everybody 24:24.400 --> 24:26.400 who's associated with the cluster. 24:26.400 --> 24:29.400 And then that's how we built this complicated lens 24:29.400 --> 24:31.400 right into projecting all these non-series. 24:31.400 --> 24:34.400 Let's say that's far too complicated to do on iPhone. 24:34.400 --> 24:38.400 So this is just something that I'm outsourcing to the DVM. 24:38.400 --> 24:40.400 Or I can just outsource the entire thing 24:40.400 --> 24:42.400 and just ask some other clients 24:42.400 --> 24:46.400 like give me a list of events that I can look at. 24:46.400 --> 24:52.400 So we have a lot of room in how we want to tackle things. 24:52.400 --> 24:54.400 Let's talk about clients, 24:54.400 --> 24:57.400 because we haven't talked about clients just yet. 24:57.400 --> 25:01.400 And let's do a stupid statement. 25:01.400 --> 25:05.400 Where I'm going to say that nuster is more like cloud computing 25:05.400 --> 25:07.400 than cloud computing ever was. 25:07.400 --> 25:09.400 So what do I mean by this? 25:09.400 --> 25:15.400 Let's go over what the basic procedure of any nuster client actually is. 25:15.400 --> 25:17.400 If I can get that kind of. 25:19.400 --> 25:22.400 Let's assume we bought a new phone, right? 25:22.400 --> 25:23.400 Fresh out of the box. 25:23.400 --> 25:27.400 And we take this phone and we download a new client 25:27.400 --> 25:29.400 or app on this phone. 25:29.400 --> 25:30.400 Right? 25:30.400 --> 25:32.400 So new phone, new app. 25:32.400 --> 25:35.400 What we do is we basically insert our private key 25:35.400 --> 25:37.400 and we're returning the key, right? 25:37.400 --> 25:39.400 We're booting up the application. 25:39.400 --> 25:41.400 And the application starts working. 25:41.400 --> 25:42.400 What does the application do? 25:42.400 --> 25:43.400 It receives these keys. 25:43.400 --> 25:45.400 It sees the key. 25:45.400 --> 25:48.400 This is the public key that is associated with this key pair. 25:48.400 --> 25:51.400 Let me start looking for what can I find about this public key. 25:51.400 --> 25:54.400 So it starts to find like profile data. 25:54.400 --> 25:56.400 So this is the profile picture. 25:56.400 --> 25:57.400 And this is the bio. 25:57.400 --> 26:00.400 And this is the people that he follows. 26:00.400 --> 26:04.400 And apparently he also has like there's also like an event 26:04.400 --> 26:08.400 with general app settings where it states that he prefers dark mode. 26:08.400 --> 26:11.400 So let's put myself into dark mode automatically. 26:11.400 --> 26:15.400 There's only things that this starts to gather all these things 26:15.400 --> 26:19.400 basically to initialize himself or initialize itself 26:19.400 --> 26:22.400 into the context of the key pair that it just received. 26:22.400 --> 26:25.400 And then it can start to run its operations. 26:25.400 --> 26:29.400 So maybe it's a cooking app, right? 26:29.400 --> 26:30.400 Or a recipe app. 26:30.400 --> 26:34.400 It starts to gather the people, the chefs that you follow. 26:34.400 --> 26:38.400 And then subsequently starts to turn out a feed of recipes that you like. 26:38.400 --> 26:42.400 Or any other application. 26:42.400 --> 26:45.400 And I guess we can do we have time? 26:45.400 --> 26:46.400 Yeah, we have time. 26:46.400 --> 26:48.400 We can go for like another example. 26:48.400 --> 26:52.400 One that I'm very much like because most of the nostrils that you're going to use right now 26:52.400 --> 26:57.400 are probably like Twitter types app, Twitter type apps like micro blogging. 26:57.400 --> 27:00.400 But there's also an app store, right? 27:00.400 --> 27:05.400 So you have like this nostril app store where you put in your keys. 27:05.400 --> 27:08.400 And then let's imagine you have like nostril steam. 27:08.400 --> 27:09.400 It doesn't exist yet. 27:09.400 --> 27:11.400 But let's imagine you have like nostril steam. 27:11.400 --> 27:13.400 You have your existing network, right? 27:13.400 --> 27:14.400 You have your friends. 27:14.400 --> 27:19.400 And just based on that, the client is immediately able to just look 27:19.400 --> 27:24.400 like, okay, what type of games are not going to recommend to this person to download or play. 27:24.400 --> 27:27.400 Based on what his network is playing. 27:27.400 --> 27:34.400 So the point of it is that you're, because in the example that I gave is like it's a new phone, 27:34.400 --> 27:35.400 it's a new app, right? 27:35.400 --> 27:36.400 You're not restricted. 27:36.400 --> 27:37.400 We were not restricted to time. 27:37.400 --> 27:40.400 We were not restricted to location in terms of where it's hosted. 27:40.400 --> 27:45.400 But we're also not restricted to a machine or we're also not restricted to a particular client. 27:45.400 --> 27:48.400 Like switching to a different client is frictionless. 27:48.400 --> 27:51.400 And that's the whole point of nostril. 27:51.400 --> 27:55.400 So what's the result of this like a result of proper nosturing? 27:55.400 --> 28:00.400 Is that we can actually leverage platforms for what they're good for, right? 28:00.400 --> 28:06.400 Because the platforms were really good in the indexing part and gathering specific types of information. 28:06.400 --> 28:12.400 And but we cannot get cut off from our following or the people that I follow. 28:13.400 --> 28:16.400 And I can switch between apps without friction, right? 28:16.400 --> 28:18.400 So that I'm stuck with like the Twitter app. 28:18.400 --> 28:20.400 I can just use other apps. 28:20.400 --> 28:24.400 And I can leverage my network throughout different applications. 28:24.400 --> 28:29.400 And that's something I'm going to go into in just a bit. 28:29.400 --> 28:32.400 And this result is of basically what we've done. 28:32.400 --> 28:38.400 What we said out was to see if we can fix this problem where we have both network effect. 28:38.400 --> 28:43.400 And because currently we have network effect in these platforms. 28:43.400 --> 28:45.400 But we run censorship risk. 28:45.400 --> 28:47.400 So can we actually solve this? 28:47.400 --> 28:51.400 Well, the point is of my story here is that we actually solve this that we maintain network effect. 28:51.400 --> 28:55.400 And that we've gained censorship persistence, right? 28:55.400 --> 28:57.400 So we've solved our problem. 28:57.400 --> 28:59.400 So how we're going to actually win. 28:59.400 --> 29:04.400 Because, you know, these in common systems, they still have the network effect, right? 29:05.400 --> 29:08.400 So my point here is that you're not going to win against X. 29:08.400 --> 29:11.400 And this is why I hate the fact that Twitter is called X now. 29:11.400 --> 29:14.400 Because I'm actually mean it as a variable, not as the. 29:14.400 --> 29:20.400 So you're not going to win against Instagram on the merit of being a better Instagram. 29:20.400 --> 29:26.400 Or you're not going to win against booking.com of being a better booking, et cetera, right? 29:26.400 --> 29:28.400 Don't compete head on. 29:28.400 --> 29:31.400 The way we're actually winning is by the fact that we're capturing network. 29:31.400 --> 29:34.400 Because they got the network effects on the vertical, right? 29:34.400 --> 29:36.400 They chose the specific domain. 29:36.400 --> 29:39.400 Be it pictures or micro blogging or whatever. 29:39.400 --> 29:42.400 Or cars like taxi driving. 29:42.400 --> 29:45.400 They capture their vertical. 29:45.400 --> 29:48.400 What we are able to do is like capture the entire horizon. 29:48.400 --> 29:54.400 Because what we're able to do is keep maintaining this network effect over all these different applications. 29:54.400 --> 29:58.400 So we're going to conquer the margin and from the margin we're going to take the sensor. 29:58.400 --> 30:00.400 So we're going to have a marginal Twitter app. 30:00.400 --> 30:02.400 And we're going to have a marginal Instagram. 30:02.400 --> 30:04.400 And we're going to have a marginal recipe app. 30:04.400 --> 30:06.400 And we're going to have a marginal booking. 30:06.400 --> 30:10.400 And we're going to have all these marginal shitty apps that barely went anyone uses. 30:10.400 --> 30:15.400 But the point is that the added value of the network effect of the. 30:15.400 --> 30:18.400 These this interoperability between all these all these apps. 30:18.400 --> 30:21.400 And the network that I can maintain through all these apps. 30:21.400 --> 30:24.400 Or and through all these different applications. 30:24.400 --> 30:33.400 Is that the added value is going to be higher than that it is than the individual network effects that I'm going to experience in these large centers. 30:33.400 --> 30:39.400 And that's ultimately the the tipping point that we can achieve is that because we conquered all these edges. 30:39.400 --> 30:46.400 At some point it just flips where now that that network effect of all these marginal applications is higher than. 30:46.400 --> 30:51.400 The network effect individually captured into into these silos. 30:51.400 --> 30:55.400 So we're going to have a small developer a denim here. 30:55.400 --> 31:02.400 And that's because I'm going to try not to shit on the on the other projects just too much. 31:02.400 --> 31:09.400 But I basically the point of Nasser is that like simplicity lowers the barrier of entry right. 31:09.400 --> 31:15.400 The the protocol that you that we handed out this piece of paper the nipple one thing. 31:15.400 --> 31:20.400 It's very simple and it's it's so simple it doesn't it's like minimal viable for nothing right. 31:20.400 --> 31:28.400 Actually do seriously a built like build a serious application with just that standard you need other standards on top of it. 31:28.400 --> 31:33.400 And this is what we call a nips nasser implementation possibilities. 31:33.400 --> 31:38.400 But the point is is that basically the nipple one thing is that. 31:38.400 --> 31:42.400 It's minimal viable for its own development. 31:42.400 --> 31:52.400 It's all we actually need and then for whatever application or that we were trying to develop for we can introduce other standards build things on top of it that's fine. 31:52.400 --> 31:58.400 But you can you can start out and think and say it's like okay when we want to make. 31:58.400 --> 32:11.400 So for media so we have to take moderation into account and you know these these cryptography key pairs are really difficult so we need like an identity server and you you create this very complex stack. 32:11.400 --> 32:20.400 And if I'm here saying well I just want to build a weather app I don't care about all that stuff I just want to build a weather app so if you're going to put all that stuff at the basis. 32:20.400 --> 32:28.400 Now everybody that wants to build a simple weather app or simple agenda app now has to do with all that crap as well right so this this basically the point is like. 32:28.400 --> 32:40.400 Sure if you want to create all these more complicated applications you need all the complicated stuff that's fine but it doesn't they that doesn't have to be at the base protocol that's basically the point. 32:40.400 --> 32:46.400 Yes, I guess I'm going to I'm going to leave it at that and I hope I'm going to be able to ask or answer a lot of questions. Thank you. 33:11.400 --> 33:20.400 Okay so I'll just repeat the question how do I deal with compromised credentials. 33:21.400 --> 33:22.400 Cry. 33:28.400 --> 33:30.400 I bought a forest for this purpose. 33:32.400 --> 33:34.400 I can cry cry cry alone. 33:34.400 --> 33:36.400 Don't be bothered. 33:38.400 --> 33:40.400 I'll just or I'll just point in the you. 33:51.400 --> 33:52.400 You. 33:52.400 --> 33:53.400 You. 33:53.400 --> 33:54.400 You. 33:54.400 --> 33:56.400 You. 33:56.400 --> 33:58.400 You. 33:58.400 --> 34:00.400 You. 34:00.400 --> 34:02.400 You. 34:02.400 --> 34:04.400 You. 34:04.400 --> 34:06.400 You. 34:06.400 --> 34:08.400 You. 34:08.400 --> 34:10.400 You. 34:10.400 --> 34:12.400 You. 34:12.400 --> 34:14.400 You. 34:14.400 --> 34:16.400 You. 34:16.400 --> 34:18.400 You. 34:19.400 --> 34:20.400 So. 34:20.400 --> 34:21.400 So. 34:21.400 --> 34:23.400 Your question is about like. 34:23.400 --> 34:28.400 The your data being hosted and and if you're so the example that you gave is. 34:28.400 --> 34:31.400 I I've created my profile like the existed for 10 years. 34:31.400 --> 34:33.400 I've done a whole bunch of stuff in that 10 years. 34:33.400 --> 34:38.400 I don't the existed on this one particular relay now that relay shuts down is by stuff gone. 34:38.400 --> 34:39.400 Yes. 34:39.400 --> 34:41.400 We're not in the business of selling magic. 34:41.400 --> 34:45.400 We're we're not actually in the business of selling anything there's nothing to sell it's an open protocol. 34:46.400 --> 34:53.400 But yes, there there's no magic the point is is then you're flexible so you can actually just. 34:53.400 --> 34:57.400 You can host it redundantly on another relay you can. 34:57.400 --> 35:05.400 You can you can save a copy so let's let's take this so you use a relay right out in the open a more public relay. 35:05.400 --> 35:14.400 But you can save all these files if you save them locally on your computer and now that relay is gone you can just re upload everything on another relay. 35:14.400 --> 35:24.400 Because you're like like I said you're not time-constricted anymore so if it's like if there's 10 days in between it there's a thousand years in between it doesn't matter. 35:24.400 --> 35:29.400 But yeah, it's not where we're not in the business of selling magic data has to be hosted it has to be on a drive somewhere. 35:29.400 --> 35:31.400 That is connected to the internet. 35:35.400 --> 35:37.400 I've been given a mic. 35:37.400 --> 35:38.400 I'm perfect. 35:38.400 --> 35:39.400 Yes, that's better. 35:39.400 --> 35:42.400 I hope this isn't repeating the first question but. 35:43.400 --> 35:48.400 So because the identity is your public key the public key is your identity then. 35:48.400 --> 35:55.400 That presumably there's no mechanism for key rotation and therefore if you lose your key or it's compromised. 35:55.400 --> 36:05.400 That's it you just have to scrap it and start a little over from scratch is that right and if like isn't there any kind of key rotation mechanism that you could kind of build in wouldn't that be nice. 36:05.400 --> 36:13.400 So the thing basically what you're asking for is that you're not solving the problem you're just moving the problem one step forward. 36:13.400 --> 36:23.400 The thing is is that the answer is you can do whatever you can you can create a key rotation standard and you can implement that and you can start using it. 36:23.400 --> 36:30.400 It's just going to be you're adding complexity that you cannot be assured that the rest of the network's actually going to. 36:30.400 --> 36:41.400 The only thing that you can assure that everybody else can follow is this do or die key right now I'm not going to hold leave you dead in the water right there completely. 36:41.400 --> 36:55.400 So one of the things that I got out of the cut out of the presentation will just address now before we get like ten other key management questions is the first thing is that. 36:55.400 --> 37:07.400 This is a public private case for the masses didn't really happen for a very long time it's been used for a very long time we have PGP keys and the only people using PGP keys are like the crazy people sitting in this room right. 37:07.400 --> 37:25.400 Nobody's mom ever used PGP keys now the the thing is that with the at kind of Bitcoin basically and this forced or introduced basically a larger industry of managing these public private keys where now millions of people actually do. 37:25.400 --> 37:40.400 You manage these public private keys for their money right it's there's there's serious value going on and apparently it's good enough for them to manage money so now the our question here is is it also good enough for identity. 37:40.400 --> 37:54.400 And if it's just shit posting online it's fine right if it's very very super duper serious and we're the president of some country maybe we can consider some key rotation scheme right but there's also like a spectrum of application going on here. 37:54.400 --> 38:03.400 And also coming on with that fact is that because we're now because we have an industry that is trying to service key management for the masses. 38:03.400 --> 38:20.400 There are also trying to develop best practices and hardware laws all that's type of stuff and also actual cryptographic cryptographic research so because we're using cryptography at the core we can actually start using these cryptographic magic schemes. 38:20.400 --> 38:38.400 And we actually have it implemented so if you go to star dot and jump dot me you have a nice onboarding sequence and in that onboarding sequence it gives you the option to split up your key basically. 38:38.400 --> 38:44.400 You get a link and now you can use this link instead of using your private key directly. 38:44.400 --> 38:52.400 I'm not going to go into explaining that completely but these are like mitigating factors the last one is that there's a generational component to this right. 38:52.400 --> 39:04.400 If you've grown up with this stuff it's a lot easier than if you're like an old fart already and have to be and have to change everything you do or change the way you think and start to managing these keys. 39:04.400 --> 39:10.400 So it's also a matter of time so a lot more people are more comfortable in dealing with this stuff. 39:10.400 --> 39:12.400 All right next question. 39:12.400 --> 39:18.400 Yeah I just want one to say because I never heard of your thing you know what protocol. 39:18.400 --> 39:22.400 I want to say it's really great because it's a big fight. 39:22.400 --> 39:28.400 No for the freedom and you know to put down this big tech. 39:28.400 --> 39:34.400 You know those that hold the Twitter Facebook and things so it should be free and it should be for everyone. 39:34.400 --> 39:42.400 So I'm just wanted to say that and I will try to use it and to build some apps using your things so it looks really good. 39:42.400 --> 39:44.400 Yeah it's just Jason you'll figure it out. 39:44.400 --> 39:52.400 But it's really really cool and it smells like a bit pointing like a chain things like like you spread all around the web. 39:52.400 --> 39:54.400 Things but it's really good. 39:54.400 --> 39:58.400 I really think that there's no one place where you keep and sell stuff. 39:58.400 --> 40:00.400 It's just everywhere so. 40:00.400 --> 40:01.400 Right. 40:01.400 --> 40:04.400 Very cool yeah thank you. 40:04.400 --> 40:20.400 Yeah you said that you don't have to trust related and so whoever gives you the data you only check the signature and you rely on that. 40:20.400 --> 40:30.400 Yeah either something that prevents me from other relay providing fake data to make people lose time until they verify the signature. 40:30.400 --> 40:40.400 Either either with a huge amount of data and if you have no way to discriminate relays from one another. 40:40.400 --> 40:46.400 You do have ways of discriminating relays of one and another. 40:46.400 --> 40:48.400 Because they're just different servers right. 40:48.400 --> 40:57.400 So you you make an explicit website connection to one particular relay and if you if you're getting just consistently get junk. 40:57.400 --> 40:59.400 I guess you're just stop using that really. 40:59.400 --> 41:05.400 As a client you can you can specifically include or exclude some delays. 41:05.400 --> 41:16.400 Yeah yes very much so yeah to some extent you kind of have to to some extent you depending on what kind of application use so it's. 41:16.400 --> 41:25.400 For instance it's very similar to if you think of these relay feeds like if you think it from the perspective of relay feeds and not what the the end problem. 41:25.400 --> 41:34.400 It's following people and picking whatever relay that they use but specifically following a relay it becomes very much like RSS right. 41:34.400 --> 41:41.400 But the instead it's very much like RSS but now all the stuff is signed. 41:41.400 --> 41:43.400 Thanks for your talk. 41:43.400 --> 41:45.400 Yeah. 41:45.400 --> 41:46.400 Thank you. 41:46.400 --> 41:52.400 Is there a economic incentive for running a relay? 41:53.400 --> 42:05.400 So there can be an economic incentive by simply having a paywall for your like asking payment for your relay I use a paid paid relay. 42:05.400 --> 42:11.400 Because the incentive for me is that I it gives me a certain amount of trust that they're going to be there next year. 42:11.400 --> 42:20.400 Also if you it can also be people run servers or businesses run servers and they're not directly being paid for running those servers. 42:20.400 --> 42:29.400 It's just part of their business right and they actually get paid for something else but they need to fact that they but they need a running a server. 42:29.400 --> 42:40.400 Also it's like it depends on what you're doing running a server like running a web server basically is not necessarily a whole much of a costing. 42:40.400 --> 42:49.400 Like unless you're YouTube right if you're YouTube it's like different but you know YouTube is like the hardest problem out there basically. 42:49.400 --> 42:58.400 But there are a lot of simpler things maybe as a weather app I don't know how happy it's going to be as a weather app to to run that service. 42:58.400 --> 43:05.400 But maybe you just sell your weather subscriptions and you you pay for the relay just basically affected your running a business. 43:05.400 --> 43:08.400 But I have no specific answer to that question. 43:08.400 --> 43:18.400 It's 2025 the internet is assisted for a long time now and servers are actually running and in a lot of cases nobody's directly paying for much of anything so. 43:18.400 --> 43:23.400 I don't know hopefully we'll figure it out. 43:23.400 --> 43:38.400 There is a versioning story such as if the encryption needs to be updated the algorithms need to be updated or anything like that. 43:38.400 --> 43:51.400 I'm like my answer is basically just to like the same thing if you your keys or compromise is cry if if nor is compromised I guess we'll also have to well just have to cry. 43:51.400 --> 44:04.400 Like implicit like I'd say in terms of like is there is it implemented in the protocol I don't think so no just as users if crypto is like if the crypto is broken we're going to have to use different crypto. 44:04.400 --> 44:21.400 Hopefully we can settle on a new crypto at that stage. 44:21.400 --> 44:29.400 So what you're saying is that you could just run a version number on things. 44:29.400 --> 44:36.400 I guess the thing is you're you're basically running. 44:36.400 --> 44:42.400 I guess you can specify you it could have been specified in the kind already right you can just use a different kind number. 44:42.400 --> 44:51.400 If you're if you're saying okay we're using different events on the different standard you'll just give it another kind. 44:51.400 --> 44:58.400 That's that's another way of of tackling the problem as well any other questions. 44:58.400 --> 45:12.400 Oh yeah you to to paraphrase you said that the because it was too complicated for normies to set up a website perhaps mirror them they were driven into techno feudalism. 45:12.400 --> 45:16.400 What is this soul for that. 45:16.400 --> 45:19.400 How does it make things less complicated. 45:19.400 --> 45:29.400 The thing is is that we can you can shop you can shop for your landlord I guess that's the point right the the thing with the technical feudalism is then. 45:29.400 --> 45:41.400 And this is the point about local the being stuck to a location is that they they own the territory the thing with the internet is that in the internet we're not actually bound by by space. 45:41.400 --> 45:50.400 But it's only because we're going to these specific platforms where now are bound by space they meet the space of their server. 45:50.400 --> 45:55.400 And the whole thing is is that you can always just put us next server next to it. 45:55.400 --> 46:10.400 And now we've created a whole bunch of new space right so the way you the way you solve the problem that you're you're depositing here is the technical feudalism is not we're not space constructed anymore you can just put another server next to it and now we've created more land. 46:10.400 --> 46:18.400 You could always do that it was just complex to set up many mirrors to have proxies and relays and all sorts of things. 46:18.400 --> 46:25.400 The whole point is that you're the reason people didn't do that was they were then driven to the central landlord and said they get it. 46:25.400 --> 46:29.400 Yes, but the problem is this soul for that simplicity because mother going to use this. 46:29.400 --> 46:35.400 Yes, so that was the whole central thesis of the presentation is that you are now stuck in this vertical. 46:35.400 --> 46:42.400 With no sir you solve for it is that you're now we've now got network effect over all these servers. 46:42.400 --> 46:48.400 So you're not you're not you're the network effect is not captured in the server anymore. 46:48.400 --> 47:04.400 So you can so I get where you're saying is like okay it's you get let's assume that it doesn't relieve any complexity I mean running a relay can be as simple as just running a Raspberry Pi 47:04.400 --> 47:11.400 But let's assume that it's that it's not and still got to be five servers the whole point of the protocol is that you're now you're network. 47:11.400 --> 47:17.400 Your identity and your network is not stuck on one of each of these five servers or six servers. 47:17.400 --> 47:28.400 I don't have a I don't have six separate accounts by at Facebook Instagram and these places I just have one profile that functions over all these six places. 47:28.400 --> 47:38.400 So that's how that's how it solves for like let's assume that it does that still to complex and it's only going to be six servers and it's still better than what we have now. 47:38.400 --> 47:44.400 And on top of that it's it's probably a lot easier to do self host at least for your own stuff. 47:44.400 --> 47:51.400 Hi, let's say this protocol blows up to the size of Facebook Instagram Twitter et cetera. 47:51.400 --> 48:04.400 How would this decentralized relay system hold a performance wise because the traffic can be really an equal or like where it's the space globally like how how does it hold up. 48:04.400 --> 48:08.400 So I guess. 48:08.400 --> 48:15.400 In terms of I guess my answer is going to be like a spectrum and there's going to be probably probably is going to be a power law. 48:15.400 --> 48:20.400 And it's basically a tie into the to the to the answer I just get to the other question. 48:20.400 --> 48:31.400 It's fine if there is like a large chunky server for a particular use case in order to do especially this it's also. 48:31.400 --> 48:38.400 I have the two modes right. 48:38.400 --> 48:42.400 The the relay centric thing and the the M pop centric thing. 48:42.400 --> 48:51.400 So when we think about when we think about when when we think about a use case. 48:51.400 --> 48:53.400 From this the empire. 48:53.400 --> 49:02.400 Oh, I'm not sharing whatever when when we think about the use case from the the M pop centric stuff where we're just following people. 49:02.400 --> 49:15.400 And I'm just trying to figure out where I can find stuff that they're posting their stuff is probably distributed over a whole bunch of relays right so in that in this case it's not that there is outside pressure. 49:15.400 --> 49:19.400 From a whole bunch of people on one particular relay. 49:19.400 --> 49:27.400 Because everybody is using the same relay it's a whole bunch of people are using a whole bunch of different relays so we got a distribution of load in that case. 49:27.400 --> 49:48.400 It's more what more happens in the problem more arises on the relay centric mode of operating where we have like a very popular relay because they're like let's say the astronomy we have a very very very popular astronomy relay that the entire world that billions of users on the astronomy relay. 49:48.400 --> 50:03.400 Then it's just it's just the same way of managing the infrastructure of web hosting than it is today. 50:03.400 --> 50:08.400 Correct. 50:08.400 --> 50:26.400 Yes, so and and the so like I mentioned is that we're we are able to leverage platforms because we can still use these platforms the problem the problem arises that the moment we have a platform that's very popular has a lot of users we run the censorship risk right. 50:26.400 --> 50:47.400 But we actually solve for this censorship because okay you can be kicked off of this big platform but you don't you lose all your followers because you don't follow the people you follow through the relay you follow the people you follow for the fact that you know where to find their stuff. 50:47.400 --> 50:48.400 Does that make sense? 50:56.400 --> 51:08.400 Okay, so basically. 51:09.400 --> 51:25.400 Basically your question is like what what prevents like an application or let's say a client what what prevents from a client that you're using or your phone to create a special relation to a relay and basically create proprietary. 51:25.400 --> 51:36.400 A relationship between a client and a relay when it becomes very popular and basically start to undermine the the standard of the protocol because it now becomes it's its own dominant standard of the protocol. 51:36.400 --> 51:44.400 The unfortunate answer is nothing except for our own vigilance. 51:44.400 --> 51:53.400 Hopefully we can hopefully like hopefully we can bootstrap this thing fast enough and create enough network effect among all these marginal applications. 51:53.400 --> 52:00.400 In a way that that it always outsizes this newcomer that tries to get wants to get big on its own right. 52:00.400 --> 52:05.400 Because basically he starts to compete in exactly the same way that we are competing with the central platforms right now. 52:05.400 --> 52:13.400 So the more we win against the central platforms it's very unlikely that the that we we're going to have to suffer this type of attack again. 52:13.400 --> 52:18.400 Please don't speak without a microphone it's a bit disrespectful thank you. 52:18.400 --> 52:21.400 We have time for more questions. 52:21.400 --> 52:26.400 Last one. 52:26.400 --> 52:29.400 Okay. 52:30.400 --> 52:39.400 So you started out but problem with the verification and if one platform goes down and you can't verify anymore but. 52:39.400 --> 52:53.400 I don't really see the nice thing is that you tie everything in the message so the message is standing on itself but the verification does not you do need to have somewhere where that public key is tied to the profile. 52:53.400 --> 53:01.400 There is an authority that you can ensure like okay someone did not create a different duplicate profile with just a new signature and then it seems to be. 53:01.400 --> 53:03.400 With my face on it or yours. 53:03.400 --> 53:07.400 So how do you then still solve that problem that. 53:07.400 --> 53:14.400 As the relays are multiple but then you still aren't tied to a single authority that needs to exist otherwise you can't verify anymore. 53:14.400 --> 53:18.400 No so it's the I understand your question. 53:18.400 --> 53:21.400 The the thing is is that. 53:21.400 --> 53:25.400 You don't need a central authority to do this. 53:25.400 --> 53:31.400 The basic the basic way to approach is is that we're face to face now we can exchange keys. 53:31.400 --> 53:36.400 And as long as those keys are not compromised right that's always the basic assumption of this stuff but. 53:36.400 --> 53:48.400 The most of these those keys are not compromised I don't I don't need an authority to know that that you are you right and that if you say that you're using these keys that I can identify you based on that on that basis. 53:48.400 --> 53:55.400 And then if you know we have a bunch of people in common we now have like a web of trust type of thing where I mean maybe even. 53:55.400 --> 54:02.400 Trust your extended network as well and when we have a bunch of extended networks we are very quickly start to. 54:02.400 --> 54:06.400 Together like a hard large part of the population and maybe even everybody. 54:06.400 --> 54:10.400 So that that's the web of trust is basically the the base of the answer. 54:10.400 --> 54:11.400 Thank you. 54:11.400 --> 54:17.400 I'm out of time so I'm thank you a lot for all the questions and see you on Austin. 54:17.400 --> 54:20.400 There's always the whole of tracks.