WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:16.000 I think it's fine, I can start, I think we can always cut the video, it's okay to start. 00:16.000 --> 00:19.000 Yes, but do we do an introduction? 00:19.000 --> 00:21.000 No, no, I said it's okay. 00:21.000 --> 00:28.000 So, hello, I'm Ludwig Dubas, I'm the founder and CEO of XWiki, SIS, XWiki is a company, I found 00:28.000 --> 00:34.000 that company and say a bit more about myself. 00:34.000 --> 00:41.000 So, before I actually working on XWiki, I've been working with internet technologies 00:41.000 --> 00:47.000 in 1995, I worked at Netscape, so I have a good knowledge also of American companies 00:47.000 --> 00:50.000 and also what it means to compete with Microsoft. 00:50.000 --> 00:54.000 Netscape had a really big, big fight at some point with Microsoft. 00:54.000 --> 00:58.000 Then I worked in a French startup that was doing audience measurement. 00:58.000 --> 01:02.000 That was acquired by Neil Sennet ratings. 01:02.000 --> 01:06.000 And then after that, I decided to create XWiki. 01:06.000 --> 01:12.000 As I was a long time, I was a weak user in my previous companies and I found it really 01:12.000 --> 01:14.000 extremely useful for knowledge management. 01:14.000 --> 01:23.000 And I had a big passion for making people share knowledge and be efficient and work 01:23.000 --> 01:27.000 with very flat organization and that's how I created XWiki. 01:27.000 --> 01:31.000 Practically, I do prefer to build open source. 01:31.000 --> 01:35.000 Then actually tell people that they sure or things like that. 01:35.000 --> 01:41.000 But in the end, I end up doing significant talks or lobbying and explaining why open source 01:41.000 --> 01:45.000 should be great and why we should do it, why government should do it, more et cetera. 01:45.000 --> 01:50.000 But sometimes we kind of prefer to go back and actually doing this stuff. 01:50.000 --> 01:53.000 Then saying that it should be done. 01:53.000 --> 01:58.000 But I also like very much to do talks to share our experience. 01:58.000 --> 02:04.000 How it worked and what were the difficulties so that it can be useful for creating more 02:04.000 --> 02:06.000 companies or more projects and stuff like that. 02:06.000 --> 02:11.000 I'm also a member of a few organizations in France and at European level. 02:11.000 --> 02:14.000 But also I'm a member of the board of open source tracks. 02:14.000 --> 02:18.000 If you don't know open source tracks, go see what they do and help them. 02:18.000 --> 02:20.000 They always need money. 02:20.000 --> 02:24.000 I also am a very small investor in Mopena. 02:24.000 --> 02:30.000 The mobile phone with the EOS of complete open source Android. 02:30.000 --> 02:34.000 So XWiki is a French and European company. 02:34.000 --> 02:38.000 We're self-funded so we have no investors. 02:38.000 --> 02:42.000 Just some employees put some money at the beginning. 02:42.000 --> 02:48.000 We're doing like about 6.5 million revenue for the last year. 02:48.000 --> 02:53.000 So it's not yet the accounting revenue is what we sold in the year. 02:53.000 --> 02:57.000 And we actually did 50% growth two years in a row. 02:57.000 --> 02:59.000 So we have a good trend right now. 02:59.000 --> 03:03.000 We have 65 people, mostly in France and Romania. 03:03.000 --> 03:07.000 But we have also people in other countries. 03:07.000 --> 03:09.000 And we do two softwares. 03:09.000 --> 03:10.000 One is a tricky. 03:10.000 --> 03:13.000 The main one and quick pad is actually a second project. 03:13.000 --> 03:16.000 We started inside and it's much smaller. 03:16.000 --> 03:18.000 It's nine people. 03:18.000 --> 03:21.000 And it's it's under the bit differently. 03:21.000 --> 03:28.000 So that gives us also a bit of a different view on on what it means to to fund open source. 03:28.000 --> 03:32.000 I'm quite engaged in digital sovereignty. 03:32.000 --> 03:36.000 Like trying to free ourselves from running softwares, 03:36.000 --> 03:38.000 like Microsoft, everyone, all the companies. 03:38.000 --> 03:49.000 And we're happy with XWiki to be one piece of what is needed to actually get us free a bit more free on this thing. 03:49.000 --> 03:55.000 We're basically have a traditional software company business model. 03:55.000 --> 03:58.000 And that includes everything including service. 03:58.000 --> 04:00.000 Actually I'll talk about that more. 04:00.000 --> 04:08.000 The how the share of service and support and all I think that basically we provide the support of the software. 04:08.000 --> 04:14.000 And consulting, hosting, SaaS, like 50 much like any traditional software company. 04:14.000 --> 04:19.000 And but also service has been something important I'll mention it. 04:19.000 --> 04:22.000 So I was thinking how did it start. 04:22.000 --> 04:26.000 But actually it's like five years how it started. 04:26.000 --> 04:28.000 It took a lot of time to pick up. 04:28.000 --> 04:31.000 So it's a long story so 20 for the company. 04:31.000 --> 04:33.000 So and so the first thing is. 04:33.000 --> 04:38.000 But how do you do software like I was really convinced we should do open software. 04:38.000 --> 04:39.000 But how do you fund it? 04:39.000 --> 04:42.000 So the thing is okay, you can be a billionaires and spend your money. 04:42.000 --> 04:44.000 I was not. 04:44.000 --> 04:46.000 So I said okay, how can I do it? 04:46.000 --> 04:51.000 And then the different ways of launching the funding of companies. 04:51.000 --> 04:54.000 So you can fund with crypto money sometimes. 04:54.000 --> 04:56.000 So some people have done that. 04:56.000 --> 04:58.000 Like okay, we're going to create a token. 04:58.000 --> 05:00.000 We get some money and we can build some software. 05:00.000 --> 05:03.000 We can raise money as a startup. 05:03.000 --> 05:07.000 I can just be a volunteer or I can take donations. 05:07.000 --> 05:09.000 Or I can be a company selling service or product. 05:09.000 --> 05:14.000 So and I try to kind of say okay, what does it change in your life. 05:14.000 --> 05:17.000 So and how much and how independent are you. 05:17.000 --> 05:20.000 Can you do really more flaws, more open source. 05:20.000 --> 05:23.000 How sustainable are you and how nice it is. 05:23.000 --> 05:26.000 So if you raise money, it's quite cool at the beginning. 05:26.000 --> 05:27.000 Like you raise money. 05:27.000 --> 05:28.000 You have money. 05:28.000 --> 05:30.000 You can build a lot of stuff. 05:30.000 --> 05:33.000 But in the end, you probably did long over the long term. 05:33.000 --> 05:36.000 Because the VCs are going to take your company. 05:36.000 --> 05:40.000 So so it's it's a trade of that is always difficult. 05:40.000 --> 05:43.000 So one of the things I say is that there is no bad open source. 05:43.000 --> 05:46.000 Any good, any code that is open source that is provided is good. 05:46.000 --> 05:51.000 So even Vc funded open source is good for open source. 05:51.000 --> 05:52.000 It brings more code. 05:52.000 --> 05:56.000 But we should be a bit like not be naive about what it means. 05:56.000 --> 05:59.000 And what the changes can be over the long term. 05:59.000 --> 06:04.000 And so now my take is that you should do what you feel right with. 06:04.000 --> 06:07.000 The right model for you is what you feel good at. 06:07.000 --> 06:10.000 What you feel comfortable with. 06:10.000 --> 06:14.000 And I felt comfortable being more independent. 06:14.000 --> 06:20.000 So so the thing with investors is actually knowing what it means. 06:20.000 --> 06:22.000 What is the boss in the end. 06:22.000 --> 06:27.000 And I as a founder, I wanted to be able to tell my employees. 06:27.000 --> 06:29.000 You know, this is what we want to do. 06:29.000 --> 06:31.000 And I want potentially say this is the plan. 06:31.000 --> 06:34.000 I want to promise this for the future. 06:34.000 --> 06:37.000 And the thing is if you take investors from my point of view, 06:37.000 --> 06:41.000 you cannot hold these promises. 06:41.000 --> 06:43.000 Because at some point you won't have the power. 06:43.000 --> 06:46.000 There's a very high chance that you won't have the power. 06:46.000 --> 06:51.000 And so this is probably one of the biggest reasons why on my side. 06:51.000 --> 06:54.000 It said, okay, maybe it's that idea to take investors. 06:54.000 --> 06:55.000 We talk to investors. 06:55.000 --> 07:01.000 But whenever we spoke, I felt that the goals were not the same about what we're trying to do. 07:01.000 --> 07:04.000 And for me, money is a mean not to go. 07:04.000 --> 07:06.000 So we need to make money. 07:06.000 --> 07:08.000 If we don't have money, we cannot work. 07:08.000 --> 07:10.000 So there is one thing in open source in general. 07:10.000 --> 07:13.000 That is speaking about money is the time that that word. 07:13.000 --> 07:15.000 And that shouldn't be the case. 07:15.000 --> 07:16.000 Because we need money. 07:16.000 --> 07:18.000 We cannot have money to do work. 07:18.000 --> 07:20.000 We need money to do good work. 07:20.000 --> 07:23.000 Good engineers deserve to be paid well. 07:23.000 --> 07:25.000 Other companies are paying them a lot. 07:25.000 --> 07:29.000 Maybe you can pay them a lot less than what the big companies do. 07:29.000 --> 07:33.000 But you cannot meet completely of the charts and say, 07:33.000 --> 07:34.000 You're going to do everything for free. 07:34.000 --> 07:35.000 That doesn't work. 07:35.000 --> 07:38.000 So the money we need it, but it's not the goal. 07:38.000 --> 07:41.000 So it should be thought about how, 07:41.000 --> 07:43.000 I mean, what is the real goal? 07:43.000 --> 07:46.000 And think regularly about what the real goal is. 07:46.000 --> 07:53.000 So the first five years was a lot about leveraging the open source community. 07:53.000 --> 07:56.000 So because actually when you started doing the software, 07:56.000 --> 07:57.000 there was a lot of feedback. 07:57.000 --> 07:59.000 And actually open source is great for that. 07:59.000 --> 08:03.000 When you start a product and people find it interesting, 08:03.000 --> 08:05.000 you have a lot of help. 08:05.000 --> 08:08.000 A lot of people did your feedback or they make it known. 08:08.000 --> 08:12.000 And that's actually one of the reasons VCE companies are going to open sources. 08:12.000 --> 08:14.000 That's a great way to launch products. 08:14.000 --> 08:18.000 They go away because over the long term, once they are known, 08:18.000 --> 08:23.000 they don't benefit that much from this aspect. 08:23.000 --> 08:28.000 But so initially you get a lot of help and that's really very useful. 08:28.000 --> 08:32.000 And so service was a great way also to start small. 08:32.000 --> 08:35.000 So you're just a small team. 08:35.000 --> 08:38.000 People ask you to do stuff on top of the software. 08:38.000 --> 08:41.000 You do it and you make it a little bit more money. 08:41.000 --> 08:44.000 You improve the software underway and progressively do it. 08:44.000 --> 08:48.000 But I call it a hack because it's not a good thing over the long term. 08:48.000 --> 08:55.000 Like too much service is not so good for working on the maintenance of the software. 08:55.000 --> 08:57.000 It scales much less. 08:57.000 --> 08:59.000 So it's very difficult to grow. 08:59.000 --> 09:00.000 It was too much service. 09:00.000 --> 09:02.000 We also went to Romania. 09:02.000 --> 09:06.000 And so I called it also hack because we kind of went because it was cheaper. 09:06.000 --> 09:10.000 And I could have three engineers instead of one. 09:10.000 --> 09:13.000 If I went to Romania, which is probably not true. 09:13.000 --> 09:14.000 It's not true anymore. 09:14.000 --> 09:16.000 It's much closer. 09:16.000 --> 09:20.000 And now we're super happy to be in Romania. 09:20.000 --> 09:21.000 It's great engineers. 09:21.000 --> 09:23.000 But we never really did up for. 09:23.000 --> 09:26.000 For me, what was really important is that they're part of the team. 09:26.000 --> 09:28.000 So they need to be involved in the company. 09:28.000 --> 09:34.000 And so we have Romanian in the company at the same way that they would be French or German. 09:34.000 --> 09:37.000 And they can take responsibility. 09:37.000 --> 09:40.000 And so one of the aspects was also innovation. 09:40.000 --> 09:43.000 It helped to have something innovative. 09:43.000 --> 09:47.000 So one of the, so you actually when you do open source sometimes you, 09:47.000 --> 09:50.000 you can do just a replacement of something that exists. 09:50.000 --> 09:52.000 So you're a copycat in a sense. 09:52.000 --> 09:55.000 Like, oh, I'm going to replace this proprietary software. 09:55.000 --> 09:58.000 But you can also be innovative and actually weakies. 09:58.000 --> 10:02.000 The way or maybe they are not anymore because they're super known. 10:02.000 --> 10:04.000 But they were innovative. 10:04.000 --> 10:05.000 They're innovative for companies. 10:05.000 --> 10:06.000 It's a different way of working. 10:06.000 --> 10:09.000 So that innovation can help you find clients. 10:09.000 --> 10:10.000 So innovation. 10:10.000 --> 10:14.000 And then you can address people in company that are interested by innovation. 10:14.000 --> 10:18.000 At the beginning of it, it helped a lot to get somebody. 10:18.000 --> 10:19.000 There was also. 10:19.000 --> 10:22.000 So that's very specific to France and France. 10:22.000 --> 10:24.000 You'll have something called the Canadian power chest. 10:24.000 --> 10:27.000 This is basically a tax cut for research. 10:27.000 --> 10:30.000 And that also helped help a lot. 10:30.000 --> 10:33.000 We didn't do it right away at the beginning. 10:33.000 --> 10:36.000 But we did it after two or three years. 10:36.000 --> 10:42.000 And it helped reduce the costs and being able to invest. 10:42.000 --> 10:43.000 But a lot of patients. 10:43.000 --> 10:47.000 So actually if you look the revenue of the first five years. 10:47.000 --> 10:48.000 It's going to help like that. 10:48.000 --> 10:51.000 So I'm not going to comment too much all the details in the trials. 10:51.000 --> 10:55.000 If you look at the slides later, you can try to study them there for that. 10:55.000 --> 10:58.000 It's looking at what are the share of the different types of revenue. 10:58.000 --> 11:00.000 So you have a research revenue. 11:00.000 --> 11:02.000 You have the Canadian power chest. 11:02.000 --> 11:04.000 This is a tax cut that we get in France. 11:04.000 --> 11:07.000 But and then you had mostly service. 11:07.000 --> 11:10.000 The yellow stuff is really the big part of service. 11:10.000 --> 11:14.000 And it took a lot of time to get recurrent revenue. 11:14.000 --> 11:16.000 So what I call recurrent revenue is support. 11:16.000 --> 11:20.000 It's getting people to pay yearly for the software. 11:20.000 --> 11:23.000 And so mostly initially it was linked to the service. 11:23.000 --> 11:27.000 So we do a service project and you would sell the support. 11:27.000 --> 11:33.000 This is actually one of the reason we didn't really manage to partner much 11:33.000 --> 11:38.000 with other companies because if we partnered and we let the service to other people, 11:38.000 --> 11:40.000 they would never sell the support. 11:40.000 --> 11:42.000 They would never bring the support back to us. 11:42.000 --> 11:46.000 They would bring a very, very small amount of support potentially. 11:46.000 --> 11:51.000 And in the end, we would never be able to have sufficient engineer to really improve the product. 11:51.000 --> 11:54.000 Because you need to make a good product and it takes a lot of time. 11:54.000 --> 11:56.000 So I mean, you can have other models. 11:56.000 --> 12:01.000 And for example, what you presented, there was a turning from organization that said, 12:01.000 --> 12:02.000 okay, we want the software. 12:02.000 --> 12:03.000 So we're going to pay for it. 12:03.000 --> 12:05.000 So they can be other things. 12:05.000 --> 12:09.000 But we really went to find people that wanted the software. 12:09.000 --> 12:11.000 And some of them funded it. 12:11.000 --> 12:14.000 But the problem is how you transform this to recurrent revenue. 12:14.000 --> 12:18.000 But we always had it in mind that we need to transform to support. 12:18.000 --> 12:21.000 Always had a model always said we're going to sell, 12:21.000 --> 12:24.000 we're going to have support support support. 12:24.000 --> 12:29.000 On the way also, it was very important for us to create values for the company. 12:29.000 --> 12:31.000 So and what does it mean? 12:31.000 --> 12:34.000 And so we need to be a product-centered company. 12:34.000 --> 12:35.000 It's very important. 12:35.000 --> 12:37.000 When not a service company, you were a product company. 12:37.000 --> 12:40.000 And so we want people to be happy. 12:40.000 --> 12:43.000 And what we work on is really important. 12:43.000 --> 12:48.000 And what I want to mention is that having a good product is super important. 12:48.000 --> 12:53.000 Sometimes people blame the business model for the reason it doesn't work. 12:53.000 --> 12:57.000 But verify how good the product is compared to the market. 12:57.000 --> 13:01.000 I mean, what's called product market fit like does the product. 13:01.000 --> 13:04.000 Is it something that people actually want? 13:04.000 --> 13:06.000 Is it something that they actually ready to pay for? 13:06.000 --> 13:10.000 Sometimes they're ready to use it, but they're not ready to pay for it. 13:10.000 --> 13:13.000 So and what is the competition? 13:13.000 --> 13:19.000 In our life, we had moments where it was really difficult with the competition. 13:19.000 --> 13:21.000 The other software was just better. 13:21.000 --> 13:25.000 I mean, we can blame the fact that we didn't have enough money to make a better software. 13:25.000 --> 13:29.000 But the fact in the end is that if the other software better, 13:29.000 --> 13:32.000 users will go for the other software. 13:32.000 --> 13:35.000 So sometimes look at it and when we had difficulties, 13:35.000 --> 13:39.000 one of the things we need to go back to the software 13:39.000 --> 13:41.000 and make it better. 13:41.000 --> 13:43.000 And so it was not just, oh, let's change the business model. 13:43.000 --> 13:48.000 Let's blame open source as a bad business model. 13:48.000 --> 13:53.000 So one thing is I mentioned it's support revenue is key. 13:53.000 --> 13:57.000 So now over the next five years, 13:57.000 --> 14:03.000 we grew progressively the recurring revenue and also the service revenue. 14:03.000 --> 14:06.000 So the company went to 2 million revenue, 14:06.000 --> 14:09.000 but the recurring revenue went to 800k here. 14:09.000 --> 14:12.000 And with that, we can start to have a team that is regularly working. 14:12.000 --> 14:16.000 One thing I think is that we separated the product steam 14:16.000 --> 14:20.000 that are so that they're really being able to focus on the product 14:20.000 --> 14:26.000 and the service team, which goal is to really serve the clients. 14:26.000 --> 14:30.000 But that doesn't mean actually that the service team never does open source. 14:30.000 --> 14:36.000 They actually created a lot of modules that were kind of extensions 14:36.000 --> 14:41.000 and prototypes of first modules of something that would become much more important 14:41.000 --> 14:43.000 in the product in the future. 14:43.000 --> 14:46.000 So they would also serve as an innovation lab. 14:46.000 --> 14:49.000 And the fact that software is open source actually helps a lot 14:49.000 --> 14:53.000 because nothing stops the service team to work directly on the product. 14:53.000 --> 14:56.000 Which is actually very difficult to the proprietary software company. 14:56.000 --> 14:59.000 So it's a big advantage to be an open source company 14:59.000 --> 15:02.000 because you can talk to your own team. 15:02.000 --> 15:06.000 And I've seen and provided a company that the client team 15:06.000 --> 15:09.000 cannot even ask the product team to add a feature. 15:09.000 --> 15:11.000 It might not work at all. 15:11.000 --> 15:13.000 No way. 15:13.000 --> 15:15.000 So we also did some things. 15:15.000 --> 15:17.000 We tried to do very, very applications. 15:17.000 --> 15:19.000 So like there was a quarter of tweaking. 15:19.000 --> 15:21.000 So let's make a workspace. 15:21.000 --> 15:25.000 So that's going to add some different type of feature for different use cases. 15:25.000 --> 15:27.000 Let's make a wiki. 15:27.000 --> 15:31.000 Let's make a wiki for gathering information 15:31.000 --> 15:33.000 from the internet using RSS feeds. 15:33.000 --> 15:35.000 So we call it a clicky watch. 15:35.000 --> 15:38.000 It would bring stuff for using RSS feeds 15:38.000 --> 15:42.000 and do what is called a competitive watching of your competitors. 15:42.000 --> 15:46.000 The problem of that is that it did bring us a bit of clients 15:46.000 --> 15:50.000 but in the end it made us diverge. 15:50.000 --> 15:53.000 Like do too many things at the same time. 15:53.000 --> 15:56.000 And in the end we always kind of came back 15:56.000 --> 15:58.000 to trying to have only one product. 15:58.000 --> 16:01.000 So really one product on a clicky. 16:01.000 --> 16:04.000 Prepare for me a completely different business. 16:04.000 --> 16:06.000 It's a different team. 16:06.000 --> 16:11.000 So we always came back because one of the things is that for the customers 16:11.000 --> 16:13.000 it needs to be simple. 16:13.000 --> 16:18.000 Like if there's too many offerings, customers don't really know which one to buy. 16:18.000 --> 16:20.000 And we also did our first clicky cloud. 16:20.000 --> 16:24.000 And this one failed was not well enough. 16:24.000 --> 16:30.000 And it was not to well connected with the rest of the offering. 16:30.000 --> 16:32.000 We start to have some extensions. 16:32.000 --> 16:34.000 But everything was free. 16:34.000 --> 16:38.000 And now I'll come back to that and that's really important in what we do. 16:38.000 --> 16:42.000 So on the final side that's how we continue to go. 16:42.000 --> 16:45.000 So pretty much continuing very regularly. 16:45.000 --> 16:49.000 So one of the things and this is very typical from the service business model. 16:49.000 --> 16:53.000 It's safe, but it's pretty much flat. 16:53.000 --> 16:55.000 It doesn't accelerate. 16:55.000 --> 16:57.000 So that's a bit difficult. 16:57.000 --> 17:00.000 But it was going up. 17:00.000 --> 17:04.000 And now we also learn that competition can be tough. 17:04.000 --> 17:09.000 So our big competitor has always been at last and confidence. 17:09.000 --> 17:14.000 So now we compete also with notion that is getting more tracking. 17:14.000 --> 17:17.000 That we got a lot of competition for that last year. 17:17.000 --> 17:21.000 And one of the things is that a thousand conference was not very extensive. 17:21.000 --> 17:25.000 So Microsoft was a bit more expensive as a software. 17:25.000 --> 17:27.000 And like pay per user a lot. 17:27.000 --> 17:29.000 But that last year had the aggressive pricing. 17:29.000 --> 17:33.000 So if you had more users, you would pay a bit less per user. 17:33.000 --> 17:35.000 The initial prices would be quite low. 17:35.000 --> 17:40.000 Like you could get an instance for 3K for 50 years. 17:40.000 --> 17:42.000 And it was not so expensive. 17:42.000 --> 17:47.000 And so we didn't have a lot of room to position ourselves on the price aspect. 17:47.000 --> 17:51.000 And so then of course, you just need to be better. 17:51.000 --> 17:54.000 But I mean this means a lot. 17:54.000 --> 17:57.000 Like how you position against the competition. 17:57.000 --> 18:00.000 If there is no competition, then you're a good offering. 18:00.000 --> 18:05.000 If there is a competition based very expensive, there is a lot of people that are going to not be able. 18:05.000 --> 18:06.000 Or not ready to pay that. 18:06.000 --> 18:09.000 And so you're going to have an entry in the market. 18:10.000 --> 18:13.000 So that ended up with such a challenging period. 18:13.000 --> 18:18.000 And it transformed into something very flat for a couple more years. 18:18.000 --> 18:24.000 And so the product revenue, we had really difficult to grow it. 18:24.000 --> 18:26.000 We had difficulties too. 18:26.000 --> 18:29.000 And so we kind of blamed the business model at the time. 18:29.000 --> 18:33.000 And one of the things that, oh, maybe we should have a pro package. 18:33.000 --> 18:35.000 That is a difference. 18:35.000 --> 18:38.000 So that's a lot of what we see companies are doing. 18:38.000 --> 18:41.000 And then to price package and a community package. 18:41.000 --> 18:43.000 And the more time passes. 18:43.000 --> 18:47.000 Because like that at the beginning, it's very, it's the same. 18:47.000 --> 18:50.000 And all the value goes in the pro package. 18:50.000 --> 18:54.000 And there is less and new value in the community package. 18:54.000 --> 18:58.000 So at some point there, maybe you should do that and have this pro package. 18:58.000 --> 19:01.000 Actually it is failed for us like big time. 19:01.000 --> 19:03.000 It broke down our leads. 19:03.000 --> 19:06.000 Because people didn't want the pro package. 19:06.000 --> 19:09.000 What made us known on the internet was the open source package. 19:09.000 --> 19:13.000 So all was going to the open source website with the community website. 19:13.000 --> 19:17.000 And actually, we had a system where on the community website, 19:17.000 --> 19:22.000 we were not asking, we're not taking too many emails and stuff like that. 19:22.000 --> 19:25.000 In the product, we were not taking people's emails. 19:25.000 --> 19:26.000 We're still doing it. 19:26.000 --> 19:29.000 We took them on the website, but on the company website, 19:29.000 --> 19:32.000 not on the open source website. 19:32.000 --> 19:35.000 And so people, they didn't find the package they wanted. 19:35.000 --> 19:37.000 They went to the other side. 19:37.000 --> 19:38.000 And we didn't receive leads anymore. 19:38.000 --> 19:40.000 We didn't have people to call. 19:40.000 --> 19:44.000 And actually, one of the things that is magic with open source is that you put your software there. 19:44.000 --> 19:47.000 And you say, okay, tell me where you are, what you like it, what you're interested in. 19:47.000 --> 19:49.000 These are people that call you. 19:49.000 --> 19:52.000 And actually tell me why they want your software. 19:52.000 --> 19:55.000 Sometimes actually, I just want this from you. 19:55.000 --> 19:57.000 Can you sell it to me? 19:57.000 --> 19:59.000 Actually, not so difficult to sell. 19:59.000 --> 20:03.000 If the software is right, if the value is right, people want your software. 20:03.000 --> 20:05.000 So they ask you, and the sales costs are really low. 20:05.000 --> 20:10.000 And I take tricky, I think we have a pretty thin layer of sales and marketing. 20:10.000 --> 20:12.000 Thanks to open source. 20:12.000 --> 20:14.000 And that's a big value. 20:14.000 --> 20:20.000 So basically, at that point, what we are, like open source is not free. 20:20.000 --> 20:24.000 And we also need to participate to explain that to customers. 20:25.000 --> 20:28.000 So the thing is, oh, we have this open packages free. 20:28.000 --> 20:32.000 But people take it and it takes time for them to decide that they would take support. 20:32.000 --> 20:35.000 So they do take support after a while, but it takes time. 20:35.000 --> 20:37.000 Like the software needs to be critical. 20:37.000 --> 20:42.000 My take is that if the software is super important in a company, companies will pay for it. 20:42.000 --> 20:43.000 That's not a problem. 20:43.000 --> 20:47.000 The problem is that the time it takes for them to decide that it's critical. 20:47.000 --> 20:52.000 And that it's not just a gadget, what you're providing to them or something that's a small team wants. 20:52.000 --> 20:55.000 So how critical it is to the organizations that is using it. 20:55.000 --> 20:58.000 And so that was a big difficulty. 20:58.000 --> 21:04.000 And so, but they also, sometimes, at the moment, they use it for a while. 21:04.000 --> 21:07.000 And then say, okay, it becomes critical. 21:07.000 --> 21:11.000 But okay, do I really need to pay? 21:11.000 --> 21:13.000 Am I obliged to pay? 21:13.000 --> 21:15.000 And what's the rule? 21:15.000 --> 21:16.000 And what's the value? 21:16.000 --> 21:19.000 But it works, the software, why do I need to support? 21:19.000 --> 21:22.000 And we all want to do software that works. 21:22.000 --> 21:25.000 We don't want to do buggy software so that people call us to buy support. 21:25.000 --> 21:27.000 It doesn't make any sense. 21:27.000 --> 21:29.000 And that's not what we want to do. 21:29.000 --> 21:31.000 And so that's actually one of the challenges. 21:31.000 --> 21:36.000 If you do bugs, so if you do a lot of bugs, you might have more sales goals. 21:36.000 --> 21:39.000 But you will also have much less diffusion on the internet. 21:39.000 --> 21:44.000 And your software will not skyrocket because a lot of people will think this software scrap. 21:44.000 --> 21:48.000 So it's kind of a chicken and egg and a plum. 21:48.000 --> 21:49.000 It doesn't really work. 21:49.000 --> 21:53.000 So what we did and say, we did a big decision at the time. 21:53.000 --> 21:57.000 This is a time when we re-sought that it first we need to work back on the product. 21:57.000 --> 21:58.000 Work a lot on the product. 21:58.000 --> 22:00.000 So we reinvested on the product. 22:00.000 --> 22:02.000 I took back time on the product. 22:02.000 --> 22:06.000 That was working a lot with clients and clients and whatever. 22:06.000 --> 22:09.000 But I said, okay, now I need to go back and say, how is our product, 22:09.000 --> 22:13.000 actually, like by the market, what should be better in the product. 22:13.000 --> 22:19.000 So I went back a bit to work on that personally with other people. 22:19.000 --> 22:24.000 We did some task courses and another thing that we did is, okay, 22:24.000 --> 22:27.000 what should we actually change in the business model in the way we did? 22:27.000 --> 22:33.000 And one of the things we decided is that first we should really base our company on the open source product. 22:33.000 --> 22:38.000 So and have a link between how you transform people from the open source users 22:38.000 --> 22:43.000 to actually people that contribute, that pay for us for the work, 22:43.000 --> 22:46.000 without necessarily needing the service. 22:46.000 --> 22:50.000 And so you could say, let's do open core. 22:50.000 --> 22:52.000 Let's do open core. 22:52.000 --> 22:54.000 But we really didn't want to do that. 22:54.000 --> 22:59.000 And we think that doing open core at some point means you're not doing open source anymore. 22:59.000 --> 23:04.000 But we did something that's actually not that common is we have zero open core. 23:04.000 --> 23:05.000 That's actually key. 23:05.000 --> 23:06.000 Everything's open source. 23:06.000 --> 23:08.000 But you have a lot of modules that are paying. 23:08.000 --> 23:10.000 You have to pay for that. 23:10.000 --> 23:12.000 But everything is open source. 23:12.000 --> 23:13.000 You have the code on the repository. 23:13.000 --> 23:17.000 So we have an app store in the, in the, in the tricky software. 23:17.000 --> 23:19.000 You can search for extensions. 23:19.000 --> 23:21.000 Some extensions are called pro. 23:21.000 --> 23:23.000 That doesn't mean they're not open source. 23:23.000 --> 23:24.000 It means they're paying. 23:24.000 --> 23:28.000 If you want the source, if you're a hacker and you want to use them for free, 23:28.000 --> 23:29.000 be my guest. 23:29.000 --> 23:30.000 Do it. 23:30.000 --> 23:33.000 You will have to, if you're a company, you will have to do it for every minute or 23:33.000 --> 23:34.000 every minute releases. 23:34.000 --> 23:37.000 You will have to remove the license check or these things. 23:37.000 --> 23:39.000 And actually companies don't do that. 23:39.000 --> 23:44.000 So for the clients, it's actually, they, they just, for them. 23:44.000 --> 23:48.000 It's, I mean, they're not, they, a lot of times don't really care about open source. 23:48.000 --> 23:51.000 Sometimes they serve and source as this free thing that's beneficial. 23:51.000 --> 23:54.000 But they didn't really care about the fact that it's open source. 23:54.000 --> 23:56.000 If the product has value, they'll pay for it. 23:56.000 --> 23:59.000 Just that if they have no reason to pay, they won't. 23:59.000 --> 24:02.000 So this gives them a reason to pay. 24:02.000 --> 24:05.000 So they find active directory extension. 24:05.000 --> 24:09.000 Actually, we have LDAP and XWiki and active directory. 24:09.000 --> 24:13.000 LDAP, if you search that documentation, you'll find how to do it yourself. 24:13.000 --> 24:15.000 And it's going to be free. 24:15.000 --> 24:17.000 Active directory Microsoft. 24:17.000 --> 24:20.000 You search in the app store and it's paying module. 24:20.000 --> 24:23.000 Which helps you to configure it and you pay for it. 24:23.000 --> 24:25.000 We, a lot of people pay for it. 24:25.000 --> 24:28.000 Azure Connector, Google Apps, Google Connector, 24:28.000 --> 24:30.000 is up paying modules and XWiki. 24:30.000 --> 24:33.000 So we, we started doing that. 24:33.000 --> 24:38.000 And this, we, so we have selling a few of them, a certain amount. 24:38.000 --> 24:41.000 That they pay? 24:41.000 --> 24:44.000 Well, it's actually complicated to go build yourself. 24:44.000 --> 24:47.000 So the app store is just, you get it. 24:47.000 --> 24:49.000 You click it and you have 30 days trial, et cetera. 24:49.000 --> 24:54.000 So using it for free is you would need to dive in the technical aspects. 24:54.000 --> 24:57.000 So the biggest risk is not the customer do it. 24:57.000 --> 25:01.000 The biggest risk would be another service company doing it. 25:01.000 --> 25:02.000 Okay? 25:02.000 --> 25:06.000 Like somebody thinks that XWiki is so great that they, they should give it for free. 25:06.000 --> 25:09.000 Or they want to sell it to other kinds without giving us money. 25:09.000 --> 25:10.000 Then they can do that. 25:10.000 --> 25:14.000 But my take as a company is that if we get to that moment, 25:14.000 --> 25:20.000 it means actually XWiki is going to be so popular that it's not going to be a problem for us to live. 25:20.000 --> 25:22.000 I need to speed up sorry. 25:22.000 --> 25:24.000 We launched a good part. 25:24.000 --> 25:26.000 So how, this is how we did a big combat. 25:26.000 --> 25:29.000 So we build this business model. 25:29.000 --> 25:33.000 But then what happened is we got a gift from a class and they raised their price like crazy. 25:33.000 --> 25:36.000 And they said go to the cloud everybody. 25:36.000 --> 25:40.000 And so this really helped us because a lot of people started calling in. 25:40.000 --> 25:41.000 They said I want to migrate. 25:41.000 --> 25:43.000 I want to stay on them is. 25:43.000 --> 25:45.000 And so we started doing much more business. 25:45.000 --> 25:48.000 So I'm doing, I'm taking way more time. 25:48.000 --> 25:52.000 So the second thing is that digital sovereignty became a strong subject. 25:52.000 --> 25:59.000 With COVID, Europe also started realizing that there's a lot of dependencies that Europe has. 25:59.000 --> 26:01.000 And it acknowledges one of them. 26:01.000 --> 26:04.000 Microsoft is also continuing to raise a price. 26:04.000 --> 26:09.000 So the cloud cloud has always been thin as this great benefit that is going to be cheap. 26:09.000 --> 26:14.000 But this, this is just a, for a short time. 26:14.000 --> 26:18.000 Like it creates huge dependency for users to the cloud services. 26:18.000 --> 26:22.000 And the companies that are running cloud services have poor investment money. 26:22.000 --> 26:24.000 But then they want to get this money back. 26:24.000 --> 26:28.000 And they have a whole lot of power because they have all your data. 26:28.000 --> 26:33.000 And if you want to leave your, you have my tomorrow, your service is down. 26:33.000 --> 26:35.000 If you don't pay 20% more. 26:35.000 --> 26:37.000 And you know what I, what do you do? 26:37.000 --> 26:40.000 Before it was at your next year or two year renewal, 26:40.000 --> 26:44.000 you're going to have a price increase for the software that you have on premise. 26:45.000 --> 26:49.000 So you could, you would have a certain amount of time to do your renewal. 26:49.000 --> 26:54.000 You could decide not to upgrade to the latest version of the software and stay on the old version for a while. 26:54.000 --> 26:56.000 On the cloud, you can do that. 26:56.000 --> 26:59.000 So the power of the software company is actually huge. 26:59.000 --> 27:04.000 And they actually use it because they need to pay back or the investment that they did. 27:04.000 --> 27:11.000 And so Europe is also measuring this dependency against, against the, the big text. 27:11.000 --> 27:16.000 And is is is is investing money. So we are, we have the chance to be part of the, 27:16.000 --> 27:20.000 the companies that are participating to a German code project code. 27:20.000 --> 27:23.000 Open that with people like next cloud element, collaborate. 27:23.000 --> 27:26.000 And so and we collaborate and we help each other. 27:26.000 --> 27:30.000 And that is also helping a lot increase our business. 27:30.000 --> 27:32.000 And this is what's happening. 27:32.000 --> 27:38.000 So, so and so by the way, all these numbers are extremely plus crypto. 27:38.000 --> 27:43.000 So crypto also raised that actually crypto is 600k in there. 27:43.000 --> 27:46.000 So you can see it's 10% crypto. 27:46.000 --> 27:48.000 It's actually quite small. 27:48.000 --> 27:52.000 But it's also growing itself, but in a different way. 27:52.000 --> 27:55.000 But it's really growing with client revenue. 27:55.000 --> 27:57.000 And that's really the big thing. 27:57.000 --> 27:59.000 And that's really what makes me very optimistic. 27:59.000 --> 28:03.000 So and what I want to say is that continue working on your software. 28:03.000 --> 28:05.000 Think about the competitive method of the software. 28:05.000 --> 28:07.000 The business model has nothing to do with it. 28:07.000 --> 28:11.000 It's really the value of the software for the users. 28:11.000 --> 28:13.000 And if they're ready to pay for it. 28:13.000 --> 28:16.000 And sometimes you have competitors that are just better than you. 28:16.000 --> 28:19.000 You have a proprietary competitor that are better than you. 28:19.000 --> 28:22.000 But if you take the time and you continue to work on the software, 28:22.000 --> 28:25.000 your software is going to get better and it's going to become the better offering. 28:25.000 --> 28:27.000 And you can do it. 28:27.000 --> 28:30.000 So very quickly on crypto. 28:30.000 --> 28:32.000 So a lot of users. 28:32.000 --> 28:34.000 So this is actually the finance of crypto. 28:34.000 --> 28:37.000 So if you want to know more about the funding of crypto, 28:37.000 --> 28:40.000 we have a blog post that just came out three days ago. 28:40.000 --> 28:43.000 So there's a status of funding for that as year. 28:43.000 --> 28:45.000 It's not too easy for crypto. 28:45.000 --> 28:47.000 So actually, it's tricky is doing well. 28:47.000 --> 28:48.000 Crypto is more difficult. 28:48.000 --> 28:52.000 We're doing okay because we have funding for nine people. 28:52.000 --> 28:53.000 We can pay them. 28:53.000 --> 28:57.000 But we have this problem that it's mostly a project funding. 28:57.000 --> 28:59.000 And very little kind. 28:59.000 --> 29:03.000 And the reason is that crypto has a bit too targets. 29:04.000 --> 29:07.000 One is individual users and individual users. 29:07.000 --> 29:08.000 They don't have a lot of money. 29:08.000 --> 29:10.000 They could pay a small subscription. 29:10.000 --> 29:14.000 Five euros a month is already allowed to ask them for individual users. 29:14.000 --> 29:17.000 And on the other side, we could have enterprises. 29:17.000 --> 29:19.000 People very into security. 29:19.000 --> 29:22.000 The problem is that it's a very specific market. 29:22.000 --> 29:24.000 And it's so moving. 29:24.000 --> 29:27.000 You need a lot of extra features for this market. 29:27.000 --> 29:30.000 That is very specific to the security aspect. 29:30.000 --> 29:35.000 It could also be the ministry and actually our developers are not that fund of working for the 29:35.000 --> 29:38.000 Ministry that much more interest in working for privacy. 29:38.000 --> 29:43.000 But so crypto has these two two use cases privacy and security. 29:43.000 --> 29:45.000 And they're not easy to sell. 29:45.000 --> 29:48.000 And it's also in the market of the office suite. 29:48.000 --> 29:52.000 It's really, really hard in the office suite area to compete with Microsoft. 29:53.000 --> 30:00.000 Everybody is struggling there to match the features that exist in the office suite. 30:00.000 --> 30:02.000 So it's a really tough market. 30:02.000 --> 30:06.000 But we still have the chance to have a lot of supporters and people that help you. 30:06.000 --> 30:07.000 So we have projects. 30:07.000 --> 30:09.000 So we have projects in France. 30:09.000 --> 30:11.000 We have projects that was in our net. 30:11.000 --> 30:14.000 And our net has been a huge supporter of crypto. 30:14.000 --> 30:18.000 So if you haven't looked for an internet and NGI is a way to fund your project. 30:18.000 --> 30:19.000 Go look for it. 30:19.000 --> 30:20.000 It's great. 30:20.000 --> 30:24.000 It's not difficult to make a proposal. 30:24.000 --> 30:26.000 It doesn't take too much time. 30:26.000 --> 30:31.000 Just show how well involved you are in the open source communities. 30:31.000 --> 30:32.000 That's what they like. 30:32.000 --> 30:33.000 That's what they want. 30:33.000 --> 30:34.000 They want people. 30:34.000 --> 30:37.000 They want to fund people that are already doing open source work. 30:37.000 --> 30:39.000 And they will, they will be ready to fund. 30:39.000 --> 30:41.000 For example, I saw you had a small grant. 30:41.000 --> 30:42.000 Asked for more. 30:42.000 --> 30:44.000 That would be my thing. 30:44.000 --> 30:47.000 You didn't ask for for. 30:47.000 --> 30:49.000 You could ask for more. 30:49.000 --> 30:51.000 Yeah, maybe sometimes. 30:51.000 --> 30:54.000 But we have the chance that they like crypto a lot. 30:54.000 --> 30:57.000 And they even use them themselves. 30:57.000 --> 30:59.000 So we have a good good will. 30:59.000 --> 31:02.000 So the difficulty is that we don't have goals. 31:02.000 --> 31:04.000 So the problem is this. 31:04.000 --> 31:06.000 This is a recurrent revenue. 31:06.000 --> 31:09.000 So this is what we get through subscribers on crypto. 31:09.000 --> 31:12.000 And this is what we get in the red is the donations. 31:12.000 --> 31:14.000 So donations is nice. 31:14.000 --> 31:16.000 But it doesn't pay the bills. 31:16.000 --> 31:18.000 So maybe we can do better. 31:18.000 --> 31:19.000 So actually. 31:19.000 --> 31:23.000 So one of the things with crypto is we do zero service. 31:23.000 --> 31:25.000 So we have no service business model. 31:25.000 --> 31:27.000 So we don't have these goals on service. 31:27.000 --> 31:30.000 Because it's also much more difficult to do service. 31:30.000 --> 31:31.000 I'm finishing. 31:31.000 --> 31:33.000 So I mentioned NGR. 31:33.000 --> 31:35.000 And I want to do one thing is donations. 31:35.000 --> 31:37.000 I mentioned donations. 31:37.000 --> 31:39.000 It's a bit tough donations. 31:39.000 --> 31:41.000 But there are some hope. 31:41.000 --> 31:43.000 For example, picks have failed. 31:43.000 --> 31:44.000 Pixel fed. 31:44.000 --> 31:45.000 They had. 31:45.000 --> 31:48.000 I think they have 400 donations on open collective. 31:48.000 --> 31:49.000 But they launched. 31:49.000 --> 31:53.000 They got a big push around Instagram. 31:53.000 --> 31:55.000 And leaving from Instagram to Pixel. 31:55.000 --> 31:57.000 They announced a Kickstarter. 31:57.000 --> 31:59.000 And they didn't do 55k. 31:59.000 --> 32:01.000 They did 78k dollars. 32:01.000 --> 32:05.000 It's just that I didn't update my slides since the time it already 32:05.000 --> 32:07.000 grow to 78k. 32:07.000 --> 32:08.000 So there is some hope. 32:08.000 --> 32:11.000 With 78k of the nation, you can start to do something. 32:11.000 --> 32:12.000 Let's let's that can. 32:12.000 --> 32:14.000 Where can be one person. 32:14.000 --> 32:16.000 And that starts to be something. 32:16.000 --> 32:19.000 But with 16k of donations, you don't go very far. 32:19.000 --> 32:21.000 And so I want to give a last throw. 32:21.000 --> 32:23.000 Trot out to funding open source. 32:23.000 --> 32:26.000 And we decided to give back 1% of our recurring revenue. 32:26.000 --> 32:31.000 There are organizations like cookie public and friends that are advocating for that. 32:31.000 --> 32:34.000 And so we have created a 1% fund inside. 32:34.000 --> 32:37.000 And we have created a fund to give back to the project that we use. 32:37.000 --> 32:41.000 I think that even though we do open source, we should also give back. 32:41.000 --> 32:45.000 Because we're not the only one to have projects and need to fund them. 32:45.000 --> 32:48.000 And we are built on top of a lot of modules. 32:48.000 --> 32:52.000 So we were voting inside the company to give to different modules. 32:52.000 --> 32:55.000 We've given to master it on first and on second lab. 32:55.000 --> 32:57.000 Big Google button. 32:57.000 --> 33:00.000 Libra office as part of that. 33:00.000 --> 33:03.000 And things that we're using in our product. 33:03.000 --> 33:06.000 Because we know that the block of our struggling. 33:06.000 --> 33:09.000 And that it's not easy on the developer side. 33:09.000 --> 33:12.000 So the open source pledge has stickers here. 33:12.000 --> 33:15.000 And so that's actually another organization. 33:15.000 --> 33:18.000 But I think I'm missing the thing about that. 33:18.000 --> 33:22.000 But I think the in the US around the open source pledge. 33:22.000 --> 33:26.000 It's more than $2 million that is going now to open source 2.5. 33:26.000 --> 33:27.000 And so that's great. 33:27.000 --> 33:30.000 Because it's much more as just a 67 companies. 33:30.000 --> 33:32.000 It's actually smaller companies. 33:32.000 --> 33:37.000 And it's like 200K that have been given out through this program. 33:37.000 --> 33:38.000 And that's it. 33:38.000 --> 33:40.000 And I want to give a big thanks to the team. 33:40.000 --> 33:45.000 Because everything I showed would not happen without the team. 33:45.000 --> 33:55.000 So I'm afraid I'm too long. 33:55.000 --> 33:57.000 So I don't have enough time for questions. 33:57.000 --> 33:59.000 But if you have questions, I'm outside.