WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:16.760 Hi, change our focus, we've just talked about big, big, new funding for large projects. 00:16.760 --> 00:22.440 We are a Marie and Marie from Purlotype Fund and we're here to talking about small innovation 00:22.440 --> 00:23.440 funding. 00:23.440 --> 00:28.560 There's this trend of infrastructure and maintenance which is super great and we're 00:28.560 --> 00:32.040 not questioning this at all. 00:32.040 --> 00:36.760 The context is that funders, they really like shiny things, they can show and we remember 00:36.760 --> 00:42.520 maybe 10 years ago everyone wanted to start funding their own apps, their own platforms 00:42.520 --> 00:48.040 whatever and in the last years people have been saying this is not good, we need to care 00:48.040 --> 00:51.600 about maintenance, we need to care about infrastructure, we can't keep producing new stuff 00:51.600 --> 00:56.200 for the software grave, and that's how stuff like the sovereignty fund or the sovereignty 00:56.200 --> 01:01.160 agency was funded, how other funders that were not even in tech started writing reports 01:01.160 --> 01:06.040 about rights and bridges, open tech fund in the US started doing more infrastructure maintenance 01:06.040 --> 01:11.680 stuff and no question about that, that's just not our topic today. 01:11.680 --> 01:18.640 The reason we have today is to talk about funding innovation and small projects because infrastructure 01:18.640 --> 01:22.680 and being important, maintenance being important doesn't mean that we should stop caring 01:22.680 --> 01:28.360 about setting up new structures and better structures to fund innovative ideas. 01:28.360 --> 01:33.400 Innovation is often seen as a bit problematic in our communities rightfully because there 01:33.400 --> 01:39.840 has been this software grave production, but today we want to go a bit into why it's 01:39.840 --> 01:43.440 still important and how we can do this better. 01:43.440 --> 01:45.640 Yeah, yours. 01:45.640 --> 01:46.640 Thanks. 01:46.640 --> 01:50.760 So one reason is of course that every project starts small, someday someone said we need 01:50.760 --> 01:54.520 an open source software ticketing platform and they build it, and now you probably 01:54.520 --> 01:58.760 all have used pretext to buy conference tickets. 01:58.760 --> 02:04.320 Some day someone said we need a data secure period tracking app, so that one that doesn't 02:04.320 --> 02:06.960 miss use people's data and they build it. 02:06.960 --> 02:11.680 Some day someone said, see what she needs software to coordinate the missions and they build 02:11.680 --> 02:12.680 it. 02:12.680 --> 02:17.200 These projects only exist because people had their ideas and they got the financial support 02:17.200 --> 02:20.400 to work on those ideas. 02:20.400 --> 02:24.200 Another reason is that we want the three and open source software community in the field 02:24.200 --> 02:29.760 to be more diverse and we want people from different backgrounds to be able to work on their 02:29.760 --> 02:30.760 ideas. 02:30.760 --> 02:35.680 So starting a project often requires a lot of resources, mostly time of course, but also having 02:35.680 --> 02:42.160 in that work, knowing people who have the expertise, who can support them with specific tasks, 02:42.160 --> 02:48.680 having the money to bring in to cover expenses like server costs, so I don't know creating 02:48.680 --> 02:54.800 a logo and people will come from a more privileged background, often have these kind of resources 02:54.800 --> 03:00.960 and have these kind of networks and sometimes even have the ability to live off their savings 03:00.960 --> 03:09.360 to work on a project for six months, but not everyone does. 03:09.360 --> 03:14.080 Another reason is because the expertise is not only in companies that have capacities for 03:14.160 --> 03:19.960 research and development to fund your ideas, people have ideas because they navigate communities 03:19.960 --> 03:25.400 that have specific needs because maybe they themselves have specific needs because they 03:25.400 --> 03:32.200 volunteer because they acquire knowledge and niches that are not relevant to companies. 03:32.200 --> 03:36.840 And if we just let companies fund innovation, we won't get that. 03:36.840 --> 03:42.720 Examples from our funding experiences, for example, a cancer patient knows better what health 03:42.800 --> 03:48.160 tracking up they need than a software company was thinking there is a business there, or someone 03:48.160 --> 03:53.760 who teaches German in a school to migrants knows better what tools will be helpful for them 03:53.760 --> 03:59.920 to learn the language, then do a language like doesn't work for anyone anyway, or to get back 03:59.920 --> 04:06.920 to see what, only people who have actually been on these boats on the grounds know what software 04:06.920 --> 04:12.640 is needed, they can't be a company that's just like going to be, I'm going to figure out what they need. 04:12.640 --> 04:16.840 And these people they don't know what is needed, they also are mostly the first who know 04:16.840 --> 04:23.800 this is needed now, so in the pandemic in 2020, one example is that we saw many tools that 04:23.800 --> 04:27.720 emerge from civil society that were there for people to connect with each other, like all 04:27.720 --> 04:32.360 these tool calls, all these platforms that were like trying to find new ways to connect 04:32.360 --> 04:38.800 with each other to cause in a better way than Zoom, nobody urgently needed some blockchain 04:38.800 --> 04:44.600 with three, whatever thing, like that's not the applications we got as funders, they wanted 04:44.600 --> 04:49.680 these table calls, they wanted to be able to talk to their grandma who was an isolation, 04:49.680 --> 04:53.800 they wanted people who were maybe not super power users of open source tools to be able 04:53.800 --> 04:58.800 to use these privacy-protecting tools, they wanted to be able to work remotely, currently 04:58.800 --> 05:04.120 and still use free and open source software, and they wanted to not risk their health 05:04.200 --> 05:09.680 by having to go places, and that's the kind of stuff we saw, people then follow the trends 05:09.680 --> 05:15.880 that were like set by agencies, companies, governments, and without these alternatives 05:15.880 --> 05:20.520 to tech giants like Big Blue Button, just you next out and co, which we relied on a lot 05:20.520 --> 05:28.280 as communities, and I won't go into why this is important because tech giants being 05:28.280 --> 05:36.000 shared, it's like everywhere at first them, but like that's also a thing. 05:36.000 --> 05:40.800 So now that we've gone over this, why this type of funding is so important and before 05:40.800 --> 05:47.840 we go into it, how to make it work and to share our suggestions with you to fund small 05:47.840 --> 05:52.720 only-singe projects, we want to give you a bit of context to where we come from and 05:52.720 --> 05:57.720 why we have learned about these things, so we both work at prototype fund, which is a 05:57.720 --> 06:02.240 German-free and open source fund, it's a project by the Open Knowledge Foundation Germany, 06:02.240 --> 06:09.000 and it funded by the Federal Ministry for Education and Research in Germany. 06:09.000 --> 06:15.520 In the nutshell, we have funding periods of six months, we had 16 rounds of funding in 06:15.520 --> 06:20.960 now eight years, and we had approximately 25 projects per round. 06:20.960 --> 06:31.520 Those project, the maximum of 47,500 euros per funding, were funded 387 projects and 06:31.520 --> 06:33.080 all of those rounds. 06:33.080 --> 06:41.440 The last one is the 16th round, which will be ending this month, and we spend a total, 06:41.440 --> 06:48.640 we could grant a total of 16.6 million euros in funding for those projects. 06:48.640 --> 06:55.160 For the six, part of those 16 funding rounds, we received over 4,000 applications in total, 06:55.160 --> 07:00.360 and we've read them all. 07:00.360 --> 07:04.760 The idea of prototype fund is to have a lightweight funding structure that allows the maximum 07:04.760 --> 07:10.920 of people to participate in it, so we fund people, yeah, we fund people of small teams, 07:10.920 --> 07:16.280 no companies, no institutions, and we, for example, have a very short application form, 07:16.280 --> 07:20.240 where we give them support with the admin stuff, with the ministry, and we have little 07:20.240 --> 07:27.160 to review the reporting. 07:27.160 --> 07:32.800 For funders, this is a bit fundamental, technical as the word, but we are what funders call 07:32.800 --> 07:34.880 a hint on funder. 07:34.880 --> 07:39.080 That means we're not that funder that is going to tell you, here's a bunch of money, we 07:39.080 --> 07:44.680 like your project, and in two years, your reports and have fun, and then we'll find a bunch 07:44.680 --> 07:48.520 of holes in your report and ask you a lot of questions. 07:48.520 --> 07:52.960 What we do is that we're closely in touch with the people we fund all the time. 07:52.960 --> 07:59.000 We do regular short updates per email, per web, a chat platform, we do one or one calls, 07:59.000 --> 08:04.320 we need it, we check that everything's going all right, we offer extra coaching, with coaching 08:04.320 --> 08:10.560 partners, thematic workshops about how to build a brand around a product like logo, 08:10.560 --> 08:15.280 colors, et cetera, or how to build a community, or how to set up a company if you 08:15.280 --> 08:16.280 want that. 08:16.280 --> 08:19.840 We don't think it's necessary, but some products can use it. 08:19.840 --> 08:27.080 We also try to put grantees in touch with each other, and besides this, the focus is 08:27.080 --> 08:30.720 on giving the people as much space as possible for them to experiment. 08:30.720 --> 08:34.760 This means, for example, our payments are not milestone-based, but they are based on 08:34.840 --> 08:37.200 the people work. 08:37.200 --> 08:40.800 If they have a certain milestone where they have issues where it takes longer than usual, 08:40.800 --> 08:45.720 that's not a problem because they get the pay for the hours they work in it, no matter what, 08:45.720 --> 08:51.160 and that makes it possible for them to keep working without getting in financial trouble. 08:51.160 --> 08:57.160 They also encourage them to change the plant milestones if they see that it doesn't 08:57.160 --> 08:59.800 make sense anymore if they have better ideas. 08:59.840 --> 09:04.440 For example, because they got user feedback, or they encountered some other issues during 09:04.440 --> 09:08.320 the explosive work. 09:08.320 --> 09:14.360 Last but not least, we always call ourselves learning program. 09:14.360 --> 09:15.680 Officially, we're a research program. 09:15.680 --> 09:20.360 I've said that in the Q&A, if you've been here for a few hours, so we're funded by the 09:20.360 --> 09:25.360 Ministry to research how to fund open source and what the trends and open source are, and 09:25.360 --> 09:30.880 by doing that, we also can fund free and open source projects. 09:30.880 --> 09:34.120 Because we keep doing this research, we also get a lot of feedback, and so we keep updating 09:34.120 --> 09:38.720 the program in the way we support projects, because they keep telling us what we could 09:38.720 --> 09:43.560 do better, and we have this constant loop of changing the program and editing and making 09:43.560 --> 09:46.120 it more adapted for the projects. 09:46.120 --> 09:51.080 To just give you a short glimpse of a few projects, we found that this one is actually 09:51.080 --> 09:57.400 the period of tracking app I've talked about, which has a big focus on data security. 09:57.400 --> 09:59.440 It's called drip. 09:59.440 --> 10:01.640 We can recommend that. 10:01.640 --> 10:06.480 The next one is an Excel-collective, so this is a next-slowed app that came from a community 10:06.480 --> 10:11.960 that was more house-projectish, and they wanted to be able to organize themselves by having 10:11.960 --> 10:16.440 some kind of knowledge-based in their next-slowed link with their documents, markdown, down, 10:16.440 --> 10:17.440 etc. 10:17.440 --> 10:21.600 This turned out to be very useful for next-slowed, because this is also something that 10:21.600 --> 10:26.680 has a business case where companies can use this internally, so it made a lot of sense. 10:26.680 --> 10:32.440 They actually now work at next-slowed, and they can keep maintaining their loop thing 10:32.440 --> 10:37.400 for their community, but also making it bigger and have a sustainable model of continuing 10:37.400 --> 10:38.400 doing that. 10:38.400 --> 10:42.440 Another great example is open-cran ticketing. 10:42.440 --> 10:46.720 Maybe you've let them also here at the railway track, I think. 10:46.720 --> 10:50.120 It's a trend taking itself with a smaller railway companies, and they actually got the 10:50.120 --> 10:54.360 idea to stop this project, it forced them last year, where they heard a talk about the need 10:54.360 --> 10:57.440 to have such projects. 10:57.440 --> 11:01.160 And last but not least, we found it's something called OpenMLS. 11:01.160 --> 11:06.400 It's the first open-source implementation of a standard code, a message in layer security. 11:06.400 --> 11:11.440 It's been funded by pretty much every funnel in the book since. 11:11.440 --> 11:18.760 It's basically next-generation signal type of encryption to put in a nutshell, and also 11:18.760 --> 11:21.560 we have this slide, because we really... 11:41.440 --> 11:52.440 That, when our funding is fired, we're currently in the 16th and last funding round. 11:52.440 --> 11:57.240 We knew there was time to change something up, and we've learned a lot in the past 11:57.240 --> 12:02.440 years, and we didn't feel like it would be a good idea to keep doing the same and go 12:02.440 --> 12:06.880 to the ministry and make a proposal, where it's just that. 12:06.880 --> 12:13.000 So we talked to other funders, we talked to the... 12:13.000 --> 12:20.000 Set for working on these things that are not doing code. 12:20.000 --> 12:26.120 And because it's extremely rare, and if not impossible, that one single person has all 12:26.120 --> 12:34.040 the skills doing the user interface, the community buildup, we need to fund teams and 12:34.120 --> 12:36.640 put team members who don't write the code. 12:36.640 --> 12:42.240 This can be designers, this can be project managers, this can be medical experts in various 12:42.240 --> 12:49.360 fields, for example, if you take the cancer app, you should have medical expert in the 12:49.360 --> 12:50.360 team. 12:50.360 --> 12:54.160 And those people are as important as the people who write the code, and they deserve 12:54.160 --> 12:58.280 to be considered and paid as well. 12:58.280 --> 13:03.640 And something that may be very basic, but is not always easy to take into account is that 13:03.720 --> 13:06.760 software communities don't stop at borders. 13:06.760 --> 13:11.880 There's a particular complicated, because funds are often only available in specific 13:11.880 --> 13:17.000 geographic regions, because they're from a regional private funder, they come from the 13:17.000 --> 13:23.640 government, and that often doesn't work for teams who are in different countries, and 13:23.640 --> 13:28.360 if you fund only part of the team, that can create imbalances, because some people have 13:28.360 --> 13:32.920 more time to spend on the project, they can have more hours, they can work, when there 13:32.920 --> 13:40.200 is maybe in another region, and that can prevent the project from running smoothly. 13:40.200 --> 13:45.880 And as already said, where some people that are getting funded already have a wide network, 13:45.880 --> 13:53.240 they have a lot of expertise, a part of communities, not everyone is, and a lot of people 13:53.240 --> 13:57.080 and innovation funds, like ours, are just getting started in the field, and are just 13:57.080 --> 14:02.520 getting started with the project, and providing them only money doesn't work for the project 14:02.520 --> 14:06.920 to be successful, but they need coaching, they need opportunities to talk to the red people, 14:07.640 --> 14:14.360 to talk to experts, and share the knowledge, and having all this funding structure can make 14:14.360 --> 14:17.080 a huge difference in the success of a project. 14:19.400 --> 14:24.760 We then put it first in the list, but it's actually the one answer that we get the most 14:24.760 --> 14:28.600 when asked people what do we need from us, and they always say, more time. 14:29.240 --> 14:33.960 We didn't put it first, because we're not sure it's actually the most important one, or that 14:33.960 --> 14:40.280 there is a limit to how much more time people need. And time can't solve anything, right? 14:40.280 --> 14:44.600 Like if you don't have the expertise for various things, having more time is not going to make it. 14:46.360 --> 14:51.160 We still should acknowledge that our funding times as innovation project programs are most 14:51.160 --> 14:55.560 the rather short times, in our case it's been six months for the last eight years, 14:55.960 --> 15:01.880 and in a context of whether it's lack of support, it's not that easy to get the next fund, 15:01.880 --> 15:07.000 it's not that easy to get to a second stage type of funding where you have a prototype, 15:07.000 --> 15:13.160 but it doesn't really work that well. That funding is the worst funding to try to find, 15:13.160 --> 15:19.720 because there's not really someone who wants to pick up that work. And in that context, 15:19.720 --> 15:25.480 then you're sorry thinking about more time actually makes sense, and we're thinking more than 15:25.480 --> 15:30.440 code and more time combine at the same time and having second stage funding where it's something 15:30.440 --> 15:37.720 that is not only coding is very helpful to projects. And in the end, like something that is also 15:37.720 --> 15:44.360 needed in that time thing is long-term planning. We get so many people who come and say, 15:45.240 --> 15:49.160 on the first day I have six months now to build my project, and on the last days they say, 15:49.160 --> 15:54.440 now I have to figure out how to make it sustainable. And that is something where like funders need 15:54.440 --> 15:59.000 to support projects and tell them on the first day, this is not going to work. You have to think about 15:59.000 --> 16:03.720 this, and we don't really care if you want to start a company, if you want to build a community 16:03.720 --> 16:07.640 around the project, if it's something that is going to be integrated in Linux kernel and you don't 16:07.640 --> 16:13.080 want to touch it ever again, it doesn't matter that you have to figure out what works for you, 16:13.080 --> 16:17.320 and you have to start to do that first, because reaching out to funders, reaching out to 16:17.320 --> 16:24.520 communities, reaching out to people who can support you, takes time. And I think the last thing is, 16:24.520 --> 16:29.720 we have said we quite hands on and that contradicts a little bit a little bit, but funding structures 16:29.720 --> 16:35.960 need to be as flexible as possible. It's some like funder problem that we always think we can 16:35.960 --> 16:42.360 micromanage people into doing the things they should do. And mostly, as we said, they are the experts, 16:42.360 --> 16:48.680 they know what they should do, and trying to have funds that are as flexible as possible within 16:48.680 --> 16:54.840 the friends of course, as government funding, etc, in our case. At least being open to feedback 16:54.840 --> 17:01.480 and try to adapt the fund to your community, to the people you fund, that's one really important point. 17:03.320 --> 17:07.880 So we don't think we all got to figure it out, and there's many different ways to build 17:07.880 --> 17:12.680 helpful funding structures, but if you're interested in how we set up the continuation of 17:12.680 --> 17:19.320 Prototype Fund, you can take a look at our website where we have with all written up, we have a timeline, 17:19.880 --> 17:22.680 you can find it under new.prototypefund.de. 17:26.760 --> 17:32.120 Yeah, there's one last thing we want to say, we're super happy to go out Prototype Fund 17:32.120 --> 17:39.160 and our program and our grantees and all that stuff. But one thing we're super super happy about 17:40.440 --> 17:45.400 is when people come reach out to us and say, I want to help set setting up a new funding structure 17:45.400 --> 17:50.360 in my country, in my community. It doesn't need to be government funded. There are different ways 17:50.360 --> 17:54.680 to do it. Prototype Fund has been copied in Switzerland. It's called the Prototype Fund. Switzerland 17:54.680 --> 17:59.720 has the same logo as us. It has the same vibe, but it's not funding by your government. It's funded by 18:00.280 --> 18:13.000 Macata in Switzerland with a foundation. Other funds have been funded built on Prototype Fund type models 18:13.000 --> 18:18.040 in totally different ways where you wouldn't recognize the influence, but taking that kind of 18:18.040 --> 18:23.000 I want to have a lightweight funding structure and I want to somehow make it work for the system 18:23.000 --> 18:29.400 in which I work for the community in which I work. It's great. We don't think we should keep 18:29.400 --> 18:34.520 boring growing. We think we need a lot of small funders that kind of complete each other. We 18:34.520 --> 18:40.360 need the big ones to pick up big projects, but we need also funders that are adapted to different 18:40.360 --> 18:46.280 needs. I recently went to Paris to open source experience to talk about the Prototype Fund and one 18:46.280 --> 18:49.960 of the things that stayed in my mind is that at some point there was people talking about the 18:49.960 --> 18:53.800 sovereignty agency and Prototype Fund and whatever and someone from France was like, why is 18:53.800 --> 19:01.000 all the Germans doing that and where are our funds? We are happy to help if someone is interested 19:01.000 --> 19:09.800 and not only in France. So if you know anyway opening, it doesn't need to be government, but like 19:09.800 --> 19:14.680 set up that kind of lightweight fund. We've done it for a very long time. We've made a lot of 19:14.680 --> 19:21.640 mistakes. We've learned a lot and we're happy to share. And then we don't want a single point of failure. 19:22.360 --> 19:28.760 Trump is back. The Open Tech Fund died last time when he was there. In the last weeks, 19:28.760 --> 19:33.080 the first open source grants have been cancelled or half cancelled. It's complicated. 19:34.760 --> 19:40.120 And we need also these big structures like OTF or the Sobentek agency, but we need to set 19:40.200 --> 19:47.240 up resilient structures. So one of us can fail if there is a political problem, if there is a 19:47.240 --> 19:54.120 funder that stops funding project and we need to be able to keep the money flowing whatever happens 19:54.120 --> 20:00.200 in open source. And now that there has been all these questions about whether and how they keep 20:00.200 --> 20:04.280 existing, it keeps happening and there will be these pushes and we need to build these resilient 20:04.280 --> 20:08.840 structures. If you want to get in touch, whether it is to build the new prototype or not 20:08.920 --> 20:14.680 whatever you want to call it. If you're interested in our projects or whatever, you can get in touch 20:14.680 --> 20:19.400 with us and we're always happy to support as much as we can. Thank you. 20:27.000 --> 20:29.640 I think we have five minutes for questions. 20:30.280 --> 20:34.280 Yes. 20:46.280 --> 20:53.160 This is about how our criteria for choosing projects we fund evolve. One thing that is a really 20:53.160 --> 21:01.240 big change is that we have four areas of funding security infrastructure, data literacy and 21:01.240 --> 21:07.560 civic tech and from now we'll be focusing on the infrastructure and security thinking our 21:07.560 --> 21:13.720 type of funding structure is not adapted to support projects that are very heavily content based 21:14.440 --> 21:18.920 like stuff where you have to either scrape a lot of data and keep it up to date because that 21:19.000 --> 21:23.400 keeping up today's question is not something we can fall with the funding that ends and where we 21:23.400 --> 21:29.240 have no solution to keep going. I think the rest is like very soft that we probably don't notice it 21:29.240 --> 21:36.040 but we've been learning like that when people are very vague in some like answers and applications. 21:36.040 --> 21:41.160 For example, what's your target audience and how you reach to them? Yeah, all the users of the 21:41.160 --> 21:48.040 internet and I'll go to conferences. We are very cautious with that kind of stuff and probably more 21:48.120 --> 21:51.640 than we used to be where we said, okay, let's give this project chance anyway. 21:54.120 --> 21:56.120 We have a question there. 22:05.000 --> 22:12.280 So technically we don't decide who's found that's sorry. So what did government try to 22:12.280 --> 22:19.960 influence how we found projects? So technically we don't even decide the Ministry does. 22:19.960 --> 22:26.520 So our projects are not funded by us. They're funded by the Ministry. Our jury makes a list of 22:26.520 --> 22:35.000 projects that are suggested for funding and the Ministry of Perseum. In fact, I think twice a project 22:35.000 --> 22:40.920 was not funded. One of them was compliance reasons. The Ministry was not allowed to fund it and I 22:41.000 --> 22:45.640 one of them was a bit more of a combination that went very public. There was a lot of tweets about it. 22:47.480 --> 22:53.480 And there was a discussion about like how this happened. It was a bit too complicated for now. 22:53.480 --> 22:55.800 So it's happened but very, very few times. 22:57.320 --> 22:58.360 Yes, have a question there? 23:10.920 --> 23:34.360 Okay and so that's like a question about who we found. Does the project needs to be somehow 23:34.360 --> 23:37.640 related to the German market and does the person need to be in Germany? 23:38.600 --> 23:43.000 The person is a complicated thing. If you're applying alone, you need to be in Germany. If you 23:43.000 --> 23:47.720 are applying with the team, some members of the team can be in other EU countries, but you should 23:47.720 --> 23:54.520 be somehow able to start a lightweight German company called the GBR, very technical, but like 23:54.520 --> 24:03.560 basically your team is fine. Does it need to have something to do with Germany? Not directly 24:03.560 --> 24:08.200 as in we've funded a lot of product with global reach, but if someone comes for like, 24:09.240 --> 24:15.800 this is a product for a very specific country based in a totally different continent, then the 24:15.800 --> 24:20.840 Ministry is going to be like, can it be a bit of a broader use case? But otherwise we've been 24:20.840 --> 24:27.560 funding projects that were like global projects. One short question, yes? 24:34.120 --> 24:42.760 So if we collaborate with programs on other continents, we don't know a lot of 24:42.760 --> 24:48.440 programs that have scenarios, but we don't do no a few, and we aren't touched with them. 24:55.000 --> 25:01.800 Okay, so let's have a couple and talk about it. We always like to check, like of course we are in the 25:03.560 --> 25:07.000 this German structure and there are things we can do and cannot do, but learning from each other 25:07.000 --> 25:15.400 and that kind of stuff always. I think, very very short, five words, questions, something? 25:26.280 --> 25:31.880 Do the Ministry, does the Ministry take shares in company that have been cited? No, not at all, 25:31.880 --> 25:37.640 because we fund research projects. So people have been researching whether it's possible or not to 25:37.640 --> 25:41.400 do that. The Ministry is actually really happy if people start a company and 25:43.320 --> 25:47.480 yeah, actually the only thing is they need to have a ministry logo on their website 25:48.200 --> 25:52.280 because it's been funded by the Ministry and it needs to be open source and therefore 25:52.280 --> 25:53.880 then the Ministry lets you do whatever you want. 25:55.640 --> 25:57.480 Thanks you everyone, I think we're out of time.