WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:11.120 I'm super excited that you decided to get up early and be with us this very early morning 00:11.120 --> 00:14.320 on Sunday here at Faustum. 00:14.320 --> 00:21.000 We want to talk with you about what maintainers actually need and we went out to ask them 00:21.000 --> 00:28.000 because I'll tell you the punchline funding is not always the answer. 00:28.000 --> 00:36.360 What we do know is that funding is hard. 00:36.360 --> 00:41.000 Funding open source projects has many different challenges and we've been talking about 00:41.000 --> 00:45.360 that in various forms for many years. 00:45.360 --> 00:51.920 Whether it is the challenge of how companies can give to open source projects, how to do it 00:51.920 --> 00:57.640 with the tax authorities, whether it is how projects can receive funds where to hold 00:57.640 --> 00:58.640 the funds. 00:58.640 --> 01:04.040 There have been many solutions already proposed and that are being built so it's starting 01:04.040 --> 01:06.040 to get easier. 01:06.040 --> 01:14.520 But the question becomes as we get more into actually giving funds to open source projects 01:14.520 --> 01:19.240 is that the right thing to do or what do projects actually need. 01:19.240 --> 01:24.800 And so for that, we went out to ask maintainers. 01:24.800 --> 01:31.800 We did a series of interviews and asked them what are the challenges that you are facing 01:31.800 --> 01:37.400 and what are the solutions that you can imagine that would help you. 01:37.400 --> 01:44.040 And one of the things that we know is that funding can actually cause problems and projects 01:44.120 --> 01:52.480 and so we really want to understand what are the other ways that projects can receive help. 01:52.480 --> 02:03.960 And so this is where I have my core researchers, Johan and Kevin and I'll let you introduce 02:03.960 --> 02:04.960 yourself. 02:04.960 --> 02:08.360 I am Gail Pink, I'm an open source strategist. 02:08.400 --> 02:16.000 I work with Peturgia on sustaining open source through metrics and co-founder of the Chaos 02:16.000 --> 02:25.280 Project, where we define metrics and tooling for analyzing open source project health. 02:25.280 --> 02:33.720 Hi, I'm Kevin Lumbar, I'm a computer science professor and researcher at Creighton University. 02:33.760 --> 02:37.800 And my name is Johan and I'm a researcher as well at National Research Institute in Sweden, 02:37.800 --> 02:41.120 as well as Lundian University. 02:42.840 --> 02:46.760 It's me, nice, that's convenient. 02:46.760 --> 02:53.960 So what two products would the products need money, but maybe starting from the back 02:53.960 --> 03:02.120 so just to provide some context there is that we started investigating how can we support 03:02.160 --> 03:08.040 sustainability and how of an open source project looked in from the maintainer perspective. 03:08.040 --> 03:12.640 So not just asking generally, but from the maintainer perspective. 03:12.640 --> 03:24.040 So as I first, how do we talk about open source health in lock and screen? 03:25.040 --> 03:30.520 So we look at the products capability to stay maintained, long-term. 03:30.520 --> 03:36.040 And we're talking about having such a maintenance level that it's still a high quality 03:36.040 --> 03:39.760 from the user perspective and it's without interruptions ideally. 03:39.760 --> 03:43.720 So that's how we look at open source health or how we define it. 03:47.000 --> 03:51.080 And you can go on and define that in many ways. 03:51.240 --> 03:59.400 We looked at literature from 107 ways and how 100 or 6 papers define health or look at health. 03:59.400 --> 04:08.360 You can back it down more into the productivity, so like the pulse of the project, 04:08.360 --> 04:15.320 you can talk about the robustness, how it depends on the shareholders of one individual or one company. 04:15.320 --> 04:23.480 And also in terms of the openness in a sense, how open is it for contributions or others to go in 04:23.480 --> 04:26.360 and have to to sustain a project. 04:26.360 --> 04:32.680 But again, health sustainability that you can have thousand different views on that plus. 04:32.680 --> 04:37.000 I mean, you can really break it down in a different ways. 04:37.960 --> 04:47.400 A lot of that logic can go back to this law, this famous guy everyone knows said that given 04:47.400 --> 04:51.720 enough eyeballs, everything will sell out. 04:51.720 --> 04:58.120 Well, that really comes back to this that we actually need to be enough ice looking at the product 04:58.120 --> 05:00.600 of code documentation, everything. 05:00.600 --> 05:06.280 And enough of those ice needs to do something about what they find, like report it. 05:06.280 --> 05:12.760 And some actually need to do something about what's found and have to maintain it, not just 05:12.760 --> 05:18.040 don't the code, but help to maintain the code and documentation and get community 05:18.040 --> 05:19.640 to go from so on and so forth. 05:19.640 --> 05:26.200 So there's a lot of free writing, but some of this free writing need to convert into 05:27.160 --> 05:30.600 help in the insisting of the project. 05:30.600 --> 05:41.320 And so now maybe too theoretically, but this time and energy put in here, through the ice of the 05:41.320 --> 05:48.280 many, we can compare this to some kind of callmaple reasons or something that really is 05:48.280 --> 05:49.160 subtractible. 05:49.160 --> 05:52.520 There's a limit on the amount of the time that is put into these projects. 05:53.080 --> 05:59.400 And it's very difficult to exclude anyone from leveraging the benefits of this time and energy 05:59.400 --> 06:01.640 that the people put in, double the value of it. 06:02.680 --> 06:13.320 But if you add too much of demand for it, if you go in and just ask questions, just ask for requests 06:13.320 --> 06:16.120 and just keep on without contributing back. 06:16.120 --> 06:23.240 The brain time here that the people put in will be reduced. 06:23.240 --> 06:28.600 There will be more less and less time actually put into to maintain the product in the end. 06:28.600 --> 06:32.520 If they overhead, overhead becomes too big. 06:32.520 --> 06:35.000 And yeah, maintainers are not robots. 06:35.000 --> 06:38.360 I mean, they switch interest, they burn out things happen. 06:39.320 --> 06:46.200 You get kids, you turn to tenors or whatever, get a saving boat. 06:47.240 --> 06:53.400 Companies who refactor the code bases that they get used stock owners or whatever. 06:55.800 --> 06:59.640 But it gets a lot of consequences in practice. 07:00.520 --> 07:11.560 So we look at this brain time or try to define it as a labor or human activity that's invested in this project. 07:11.560 --> 07:17.640 And that can come from two sources, either the maintainers, those overheads they're watching over the projects, 07:17.640 --> 07:26.520 they say nights, and those coming by, maybe just saying hello, putting in a request, but also trying to 07:26.520 --> 07:33.560 contribute like the episodic volunteers or some of those that actually stay on to be more sustainable. 07:33.560 --> 07:39.480 So in essence, how we look at maintenance and health is, we will do needs to be a sustainable 07:39.480 --> 07:46.840 availability and inflow of this kind of labor, I'd from the maintainer or continuous side. 07:46.840 --> 07:54.440 And there needs to be infrastructure or some kind of support in place to help these people keep on 07:54.440 --> 08:04.280 putting in time and resources and then energy in this. So I think that's what brings us onto 08:04.280 --> 08:05.960 that the maintainers really need. 08:05.960 --> 08:06.760 This answers. 08:08.760 --> 08:14.600 Thank you. So what do maintainers actually need, right? So we, we ask maintainers with their 08:14.600 --> 08:22.200 challenges, what challenges they faced. And we also ask maintainers to give us some ideas on 08:23.080 --> 08:27.080 how those problems can be solved or how we can address those challenges, right? 08:28.520 --> 08:35.480 So one of the, one of the key ideas that kept on coming up from maintainers, and this is probably 08:35.480 --> 08:42.120 something you've all heard before, but maintainers have a lot of trouble in open source, 08:42.120 --> 08:47.960 managing their work-life balance, right? They get a lot of social pressure and peer pressure from 08:47.960 --> 08:55.320 their, from their projects, from their users. There's a lot of work and expectations that they have 08:55.320 --> 09:01.720 kind of built up around their work in the open source projects. And balancing that work load and 09:01.720 --> 09:07.960 capacity is a constant stressor for many maintainers. So that's, that's the challenge. 09:07.960 --> 09:19.000 Maintainers did, however, feel that funding is a way of managing their time, right? Having 09:19.000 --> 09:24.760 time as money is the saying that we've all heard before, and having funding for their project 09:24.760 --> 09:32.840 is a way of helping them manage how much time they can spend on the project, and keeping the 09:32.920 --> 09:43.480 project moving forward. Maintainers also identified challenges around contribution support, right? 09:43.480 --> 09:51.240 So this is the, embracing episodic contributors, low cost contributor sport, and distributing 09:51.240 --> 09:58.840 knowledge, right? This is onboarding. Everyone needs help with documentation, right? Mentorship. 09:58.840 --> 10:06.440 So how do we create guide rails for our contributors when they come on to our project? 10:06.440 --> 10:13.560 So the maintainers, we interviewed, see, this is a challenge, right? Community building, right? 10:13.560 --> 10:19.000 So those, those community management tasks, maintainers, the maintainers that we talked about 10:19.000 --> 10:28.040 talk to, we're very comfortable managing code, and they were less comfortable with community management, 10:28.040 --> 10:36.680 right? Building communities, managing people, and very specifically marketing their projects. 10:38.280 --> 10:45.000 One of the, the quotes that we saw over and over again was that, you know, we don't know how to 10:45.000 --> 10:49.240 do marketing, and we don't want to do marketing, but we feel like we have to. 10:49.960 --> 11:01.720 So how do we resolve those issues for maintainers, right? So these, the work needs to be done. 11:03.160 --> 11:09.480 The first, the first thing I mentioned that work life balance part, one of the ways that maintainers 11:09.480 --> 11:16.280 felt that that work life balance could be managed was through funding, actually, and full time 11:16.280 --> 11:27.240 employment and part time employment was very desirable. So sponsorships, you know, also desirable, 11:27.960 --> 11:34.200 but sponsorships kind of connect back to the, they had more work to a project, right? 11:35.000 --> 11:41.640 We go back to marketing, right? So fundraising, marketing and fundraising are not things that 11:41.640 --> 11:51.400 maintainers feel comfortable doing, right? So even the act of getting money causes more work for 11:51.400 --> 12:00.760 them in this, in this situation. So anyway, I have that full time employment and part time employment, 12:00.760 --> 12:07.560 this is something that maintainers themselves desire, but they also desire that for the contributors 12:07.560 --> 12:13.400 working on their projects, right? Because people who are paid to work on the projects are a little 12:14.680 --> 12:21.400 more reliable in the eyes of the main teams, right? Yes, please. 12:23.960 --> 12:30.680 So just quickly, I mean, it wasn't always like, it had to be high pay, or it had to be high pay, 12:30.680 --> 12:38.760 or full time or whatever, just as being of social benefits, like maintainers get sick, things happen. 12:38.760 --> 12:45.240 I mean, having these insurances, depending on where you live in the world, those benefits doesn't 12:45.240 --> 12:51.400 come for granted, and if you don't have the unemployed, providing those in certain parts of the world, 12:51.400 --> 12:57.480 you are kind of screwed if you get sick or you break your leg or things happen. I mean, in many ways. 12:58.120 --> 13:09.000 So just such a thing as social benefits, it's really, really key, just looking beyond funding 13:10.520 --> 13:16.280 and creating these more. I mean, that is really something that can give them to relax their 13:16.280 --> 13:19.560 shoulders a bit, that they give them a sense of security. 13:19.560 --> 13:35.560 All right, so this is what we've heard and seen from the interviews and to summarize, 13:35.560 --> 13:43.880 we've looked at the theoretical framing that we used, thinking of open source work that is being 13:43.960 --> 13:50.760 done through the lens of the human infrastructure, and the labor that goes into it, 13:50.760 --> 13:58.280 think of it from resource pool. It's not when we think of the open source 13:59.400 --> 14:05.880 commons that the software can be shared freely and duplicating bits is easy, duplicating humans 14:06.280 --> 14:15.800 is so far impossible. And so we really are found that looking at the people in the projects, 14:15.800 --> 14:24.600 how do we support them is the critical thing to do here? And we want to sustain that through 14:24.600 --> 14:34.600 the various ways that they can be supported, not just with money, but also with adding 14:34.600 --> 14:39.640 more people that are reliably in the project that are helping with the buck 14:39.640 --> 14:48.920 charging, with the marketing and all the other things. The goal here is also for the 14:48.920 --> 14:55.000 maintainers to focus on the things that they love to do and are really good at doing and 14:55.000 --> 15:01.720 providing support in the other areas that the project needs to be sustainable and to thrive. 15:02.440 --> 15:09.720 And so the maintainers have told us many things that there are ways to support 15:09.720 --> 15:14.760 through non-code contributions, through helping with the management of the project through other 15:14.760 --> 15:24.440 means. And when we talk specifically about funding, the project needs to be ready to receive funding. 15:24.440 --> 15:31.080 There needs to be work done on the project side to receive funds to manage funds. 15:31.080 --> 15:38.840 If we just give money to a project, it can cause a rift in the contributor community 15:38.840 --> 15:46.280 over how to distribute funds, who gets funds, is it spent fairly? Maybe projects don't get enough 15:46.360 --> 15:54.040 to do anything meaningful with it, maybe the projects are just, there's so many things that 15:54.040 --> 16:01.800 can go wrong. So please, as we think about funding on those projects, there's no one solution 16:01.800 --> 16:09.160 fits all. On a project by project basis, it's really good idea to ask the maintainers. 16:09.160 --> 16:14.920 Are you ready? What do you need? How much do you need? How can we support you and so on? 16:15.800 --> 16:22.840 If you want to go into more detail than the overview we share with you, you are welcome to 16:22.840 --> 16:29.800 look at our full paper. It is open access and published. I'll leave this up for a second. 16:31.720 --> 16:38.920 And in there, we have split this out into different pillars that are supporting that human 16:38.920 --> 16:45.400 infrastructure of open source projects. So in each of those pillars that Kevin specifically 16:45.400 --> 16:54.200 talked about on the findings, there's a lot of good insights there. We also want to thank everyone 16:54.200 --> 17:01.400 that supported the project, the maintainers that spoke to us, the organizations that we work for, 17:01.400 --> 17:06.360 we are all part of the CARES community. I invite you to join the CARES communities. 17:06.360 --> 17:11.560 As far as you're interested in the health and sustainability of open source projects, it's a 17:11.560 --> 17:19.960 really fantastic community to talk about all things related to the health of communities and 17:19.960 --> 17:28.200 sustaining them and metrics. With that, I believe we still have 13 minutes for conversation 17:28.280 --> 17:31.800 with you all and we're happy to take questions. 17:39.640 --> 17:42.200 I saw the first hand gop back there. 17:42.200 --> 17:46.600 Yeah, so this area that you're talking about kind of almost like this meta support structure 17:46.600 --> 17:50.200 over the actual project is an area I'm super interested in. 17:51.640 --> 17:55.720 Why, and so I'm part of the vividly foundation of this segment that we're talking about 17:56.680 --> 18:01.320 we're finding it hard to get funding for that because a lot of the funding is about 18:01.320 --> 18:06.600 very outcome based or it's like they go build a thing that does this. It's hard to find funding 18:06.600 --> 18:12.760 to say hey we want to go hire engineering managers to go do stuff and we don't know what the stuff 18:12.760 --> 18:16.680 is. How, how do you, what's your advice? 18:17.640 --> 18:25.640 Can you repeat the question for the further recording of the year? 18:25.640 --> 18:30.120 So how, how should we invest or could you bid? 18:30.120 --> 18:35.880 I'm basically saying how, how can you go find funding when there's not a outcome 18:35.880 --> 18:42.360 like a direct like hard software out and it's more than meta, we want to supply 18:43.320 --> 18:47.880 or engineering management or project management to projects that weren't yet defined. 18:49.480 --> 18:51.480 So maybe you can sum it up. 18:52.520 --> 18:59.960 Yeah, so the question was first a comment that there is an experience of challenging 19:00.520 --> 19:07.720 to get funding to support the background work of a project's infrastructure of the things 19:07.720 --> 19:13.560 that need to happen in the background where it's easier to find funding for specific outcome 19:13.560 --> 19:20.920 oriented work where a developer is going to add this feature to a project but just hiring 19:20.920 --> 19:26.520 engineer to do the security on the background or whatever, that is harder to find funding for. 19:28.920 --> 19:32.680 And I think it's also going back to asking the maintainers what they need. 19:33.640 --> 19:39.880 So really what we saw is that a lot of things come down to the human human level, 19:39.880 --> 19:45.160 the personal level of the maintainer, how what do we need to create like a sustainable 19:45.160 --> 19:50.040 everyday life for you, how does your everyday look when do you spend your hours on this 19:51.160 --> 19:56.600 what pulls you in other directions and during this, these hours that you put in maybe at night 19:57.400 --> 20:04.520 or in the 10% free time you get to work, how many what do you spend your time at, 20:04.520 --> 20:11.080 is it answering questions or reviewing pull requests rather than doing the security 20:12.680 --> 20:20.360 background that you should be working on. So that really comes down to that and 20:20.360 --> 20:29.880 look asking like okay but so maybe it's not just a lot of the expected or a lot of preconceptions 20:29.880 --> 20:37.080 are we but you start contributing to a project but contributing code that's often just about 20:37.480 --> 20:43.800 dumping just in quotation marks but after about dumping code which adds maintenance burden 20:43.960 --> 20:49.240 I'll take and go that to the maintainer to maintain and maintain in the end. So one time 20:49.240 --> 20:55.160 contributions all that they can be nice is not always the way forward so this kind of funding can 20:55.160 --> 21:03.160 really help to like create a improved onboarding process, improve the documentation like 21:03.160 --> 21:09.560 lower the barriers for episodic and the conversion rate helped to promote and help reduce the 21:09.560 --> 21:18.760 overhead for the for the maintainers. So work life balance, health maintainers reduce 21:19.640 --> 21:25.480 over maintainer overhead in terms of supporting contributors and so on that thing that's 21:25.880 --> 21:30.840 really one way to start and then we can start it then we can talk about sustainable funding 21:32.040 --> 21:39.320 sponsorships, personal sponsorships that's typically seen as coffee money or support of appreciation 21:39.720 --> 21:48.120 but not typically like something they can sustain or that doesn't necessarily provide a 21:48.120 --> 21:54.840 mover better work like balance. Then if foundation would give them provide a 21:54.840 --> 22:02.600 misocial benefits like a sick leave or some kind of insurance for if things happen I think that 22:02.600 --> 22:08.760 that would be way more helpful than not a lot of other typical ways of contributing. 22:11.160 --> 22:20.520 I think I would just add as well that I think we need to when we talk about funding the project 22:21.160 --> 22:27.400 we really need to talk about we really need to frame that as funding the people that are working on 22:27.640 --> 22:34.280 projects right so we're not funding the software artifact we're not funding the software we're 22:34.280 --> 22:39.640 funding the people and supporting the people that are building and maintaining that software and I think 22:39.640 --> 22:46.120 that's probably the maybe the simple to answer to your question is we frame it around supporting 22:46.760 --> 22:53.480 the people and that's how you justify hiring a community manager or an accountant or 22:54.360 --> 22:59.560 someone to do onboarding or documentation work kind of project and that's that's all very important. 23:02.120 --> 23:03.960 Question in the middle? 23:03.960 --> 23:12.840 You mentioned openness is an important aspect of the community but you did see that the maintainers 23:13.480 --> 23:18.120 asked for that? Is that a great line spot for the maintainers so you have an audit theory so 23:19.080 --> 23:30.440 what I understood from you is that openness was something that came up but we didn't 23:31.240 --> 23:38.680 reflect that in our findings and see we're asking about that. I'm not quite sure 23:39.560 --> 23:48.920 openness was part of how we kind of provided some background on what community health is 23:50.920 --> 23:56.680 I don't think we had any questions specifically about openness? 23:56.680 --> 24:12.760 Yeah, was it this way though? No, I'll go back back. Keep going. 24:19.480 --> 24:20.120 Keep going. 24:20.120 --> 24:28.200 Right here. Openness. Users of the project can influence and contribute to the development of the 24:28.200 --> 24:37.560 open source project. In general, I think this for us this was more of a context slide just 24:37.560 --> 24:42.600 describing open source in general with openness being core component. 24:43.000 --> 24:51.400 I mean, this does come back to that there are possibility to contribute to the project 24:52.680 --> 25:00.280 and help support it, help increase the maintenance but these are really very high-level perspectives 25:00.280 --> 25:08.440 on how we can look at sustainability and an helpful project but then with that they need to be 25:09.400 --> 25:14.280 capabilities within the projects of the maintainers to manage what comes in 25:15.560 --> 25:22.760 and that the contributors need to have the support in doing sustainable contributions 25:24.440 --> 25:30.200 again in a sustainable way for them but especially for the maintainers to spend their time 25:30.280 --> 25:34.040 dedicated to these projects. So it's really, it's a balance here. 25:36.360 --> 25:38.360 All right, back here. 25:39.560 --> 25:47.640 So I suspect that people in work on research software or people in academia would answer 25:47.640 --> 25:53.240 somewhat differently than the responses you've given and so I was curious if I kind of 25:53.240 --> 25:59.800 software and those kind of maintainers were part of your pool and if they in any case, if you saw any 26:00.600 --> 26:04.120 any kind of groupings in your responses or if everything's in the early moment you need. 26:05.560 --> 26:11.880 So what I heard the question was about the scientific software and the academic context that 26:12.920 --> 26:19.080 the answers would have been different from those maintainers than what we've presented 26:19.160 --> 26:26.440 and whether we have included the maintainers from those kind of projects in our sample and 26:26.440 --> 26:33.480 no, we did not. I don't think we have any researchers or scientific software or maintainers. 26:37.720 --> 26:44.760 Just one to add. So in that context it is, I know from other papers where I'm talking to 26:45.480 --> 26:49.800 researchers doing scientific software. There is a lot of challenges in creating 26:50.840 --> 26:57.800 sustainable pools or programs maybe of research projects that can contribute back and it's also 26:57.800 --> 27:04.680 this balance in doing teaching or doing your papers and everything. So I mean, software maintenance 27:04.680 --> 27:12.360 or resource maintenance that also becomes something they do not necessarily always on daytime. 27:12.360 --> 27:19.720 So in a sense, it's also something that they put in the same energy, days and nights or 27:20.440 --> 27:29.400 Saturdays and Sundays. So they also need the social sustainability work like balance is also. 27:29.400 --> 27:34.840 I think we can talk about these findings also in that context in that sense. 27:36.680 --> 27:41.400 I think I saw two more hands and I think they have enough time of the keep it short. Yes. 27:42.360 --> 27:47.560 It's important to get on marketing, but it's more like outreach. So we have a product that's 27:47.560 --> 27:52.600 very mature and they're not a lot of places, but we're two and came here to tell you 27:52.600 --> 27:58.280 going how to reach the people that we want to reach. For example, we think this continues, 27:58.280 --> 28:06.440 but it's just agencies, but the EU, the UN, and so on. But the last way to get into a room with a 28:06.440 --> 28:10.760 person, and it's paying me five minutes, this is what we do, this is why it's good for you. 28:12.520 --> 28:18.840 How about come up with a kind of bootstrapic problem? So the question was about 28:19.880 --> 28:26.360 project with two maintainers, where you see that different organizations, 28:26.360 --> 28:33.320 agencies could really benefit from the project. The challenge is around marketing or outreach 28:33.480 --> 28:40.200 and making sure that those people that need to know, get to know and getting in front of them 28:40.200 --> 28:46.520 to explain for five minutes what it is and whether in our research, we've come across similar 28:46.520 --> 28:54.840 stories of we just need help getting in front of the right people. Definitely, definitely, I think 28:54.840 --> 29:02.840 that was a reoccurring theme that we saw a lot, specifically with marketing and fundraising. It's 29:02.920 --> 29:10.920 just the maintainers we talked to did not feel confident in being able to do that work themselves, 29:10.920 --> 29:15.560 and that was that's one area that they would really love to have more support on. 29:18.680 --> 29:24.840 I mean, that's going back to a more general thing is that they came into this, they started 29:24.840 --> 29:32.600 developing because that's what they loved doing outreach or standing like publicly speaking 29:33.400 --> 29:40.680 and especially like this comes back to funding like asking for sponsorship, asking someone to pay 29:40.680 --> 29:48.200 me or please come and contribute to my project. That's really, they feel like that's 29:49.160 --> 29:55.320 we have some quotes like they are afraid of doing that because they are afraid to lose 29:55.320 --> 30:00.360 respect in their community, like you're supposed to, the norm is that you're supposed to just 30:00.920 --> 30:08.200 go and spend just do it, don't complain. I mean, this kind of norm, so 30:08.200 --> 30:13.320 let me tell you so much, I know we talked today where they were afraid of like getting 30:13.320 --> 30:17.720 lash back in this thing, so it's both about asking for money asking for support, 30:17.720 --> 30:23.320 but also promoting their products. Do we have time for last question? Okay, got it. 30:24.280 --> 30:47.320 The question was in our research and talking with maintainers if you've come across best practices 30:47.320 --> 30:53.000 for how maintainers can let funders and others know what they actually need. 30:58.200 --> 31:02.440 They don't, they don't know and that's what they need help with. There's so really it's 31:03.160 --> 31:11.880 we from the outside quote quote we should be asking them, then them coming and asking us 31:12.760 --> 31:19.320 to really like we're here, we're listening because they don't know who's out there. 31:20.600 --> 31:27.640 People come up, people go and they see people turning up, but we need to ask and let to let the 31:27.640 --> 31:29.640 know that we are.