WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.680 My name is Felix. This is Nick. We're going to talk about how to get the EU to invest 00:12.680 --> 00:20.680 in open-source maintenance and security. Early on in a Q&A, somebody was asking, okay, how 00:20.680 --> 00:26.840 did you convince governments in different parts of the world to put money into open-source? 00:26.840 --> 00:32.520 That's basically what we're going to talk about today. I'm going to quickly introduce 00:32.520 --> 00:37.400 myself, so I'm director of developer policy at GitHub and in a previous life I was a 00:37.400 --> 00:47.600 politician and managed to get a fund started, so I will talk a little bit from that perspective. 00:47.600 --> 00:51.920 I didn't was not able to do those things. My name is Nick Gates. I'm a policy advisor at 00:51.920 --> 00:58.200 open forum Europe where I kind of specialize in public sector, open-source, the internationalization 00:58.200 --> 01:01.880 of open-source is I'm calling it and then increasingly getting funding into the open-source 01:01.880 --> 01:07.080 ecosystem. Thank you. 01:07.080 --> 01:13.040 All right, so one thing that's really important I think when talking about getting governments 01:13.040 --> 01:19.800 to invest in open-source is to make the argument the narrative. Because a lot of the people 01:19.840 --> 01:24.200 in government are not technologists themselves, they're not software developers, they might 01:24.200 --> 01:31.120 not even have heard about open-source, so really important for a step is kind of getting 01:31.120 --> 01:37.320 them to care about it. How has this worked in the past? So I was involved in starting two 01:37.320 --> 01:43.600 different funding projects. One was the Fossa project back in 2015. I believe I was a 01:43.640 --> 01:49.400 new member of the European Parliament and I was I guess lucky that open-source security 01:49.400 --> 01:55.960 was in the news at the time. So there was the heart-bleed vulnerability which sort of got mainstream 01:55.960 --> 02:02.080 media to report about security issues in open-source and I was able to use that as a hook 02:02.080 --> 02:08.720 to basically start talking about this and get a pilot project in the EU budget. And the 02:08.800 --> 02:17.160 second case was sort of similar with the sovereign tech agency where basically the lock for 02:17.160 --> 02:22.160 shell vulnerability really helped us have this conversations with the German government. 02:22.160 --> 02:28.800 So but basically just waiting for the next open-source security catastrophe and then saying, 02:28.800 --> 02:33.560 hey, you should do something about this is obviously not enough. So the other part that was 02:33.720 --> 02:40.360 really important is having done the research and basically having a feasibility study 02:40.360 --> 02:46.520 in place when these kinds of things happen. So that's basically the challenge that we're 02:46.520 --> 02:54.680 looking at with the EU right now. We want to be prepared that for the next time if something 02:54.680 --> 03:00.840 like this happens, we don't just have ways to talk about open-source to policy makers but we 03:00.920 --> 03:06.360 also have basically a plan for what such a funding instrument could look like. We're pretty 03:06.360 --> 03:11.240 much at the beginning of this journey so we're kind of starting to look into this and doing 03:11.240 --> 03:19.960 this research work and basically want to give you an overview of our plans. Yeah, I think we can 03:19.960 --> 03:26.520 skip this one. Yeah. So in the case of the sovereign tech fund now the sovereign tech agency 03:26.600 --> 03:36.520 this looked like a feasibility study that is also available online. Basically we were able to 03:36.520 --> 03:43.320 use that to convince the German government to get the sovereign tech funds started and get it 03:43.320 --> 03:47.320 off the ground back then. So this is kind of what we're trying to do here. 03:47.560 --> 03:57.240 Yeah, so sovereign tech agency I think has been a huge success story. It has distributed a lot of 03:57.240 --> 04:03.800 funding I think over 23 million euros at this point to a lot of different projects but as you're 04:03.800 --> 04:10.280 going to see compared to how much the EU is spending on digital policy is still relatively small. 04:10.280 --> 04:17.560 So yeah, how do we get the EU to scale up the sovereign tech agency and for that I'm going to 04:17.560 --> 04:24.680 give to Nick. So as we approach this study that Felix alluded to we're thinking about two things, 04:24.680 --> 04:29.800 the economic challenge and the legal challenge. So in terms of the economic challenge we have 04:29.800 --> 04:35.880 some numbers here 65 to 95 billion euros minimum contribution to the EU economy and 8.8 trillion 04:35.880 --> 04:40.920 global estimated demand side value. I'm going to add a few other statistics out for you all 04:40.920 --> 04:48.920 without OSS and OSS networks of developers firms would pay an estimated 3.5 times more to build 04:48.920 --> 04:54.040 the sovereign platforms that run their businesses. That's from a study by Frank Nagle at Harvard. 04:54.040 --> 04:58.920 70 to 90 percent of any given software code base is made up of open source components that 04:58.920 --> 05:04.040 comes from Linux Foundation study. Based on the value and the scale and reach of OSS we believe 05:04.040 --> 05:08.440 that the potential economic impacts of open source vulnerabilities is huge. We know that it is huge 05:09.160 --> 05:13.720 as Felix talked about and so therefore we need an economic argument that carefully considers 05:13.720 --> 05:18.680 the value in scale and reach of OSS building on the work of the sovereign tech agency and that's 05:18.680 --> 05:27.080 what we're trying to do. There we go. So as we think about doing this we're thinking about 05:27.080 --> 05:32.040 two or three different institutional setups. One is kind of scaling a well-resourced EU 05:32.040 --> 05:36.760 wide version of the sovereign tech agency that is in many ways our preference modeled after 05:36.760 --> 05:41.960 the German sovereign tech agency. But we're also looking into different options for how this 05:41.960 --> 05:46.360 could be implemented and actually governed by the European Union and the European Commission. 05:47.160 --> 05:51.160 So there's such things as a common policy framework that could involve a federated setup 05:51.160 --> 05:56.520 with a funded coordinating body or some sort of task force that is given the legal mandate to 05:57.480 --> 06:01.640 coordinate between all of these. Then there's also the free-for-all situation which is that 06:02.200 --> 06:07.000 there is member state setting up their own funding instruments with the common policy framework 06:07.000 --> 06:12.040 in place but no actual kind of institutional mandate within the Commission itself necessary necessarily. 06:12.040 --> 06:17.880 There's also many other funding and financing instruments out there and this is also not just about 06:17.880 --> 06:22.600 funding and financing it is also about kind of resourcing more broadly. So there's many different 06:22.600 --> 06:29.320 aspects of this that we're considering as we go forward. All right yeah this kind of economic 06:29.320 --> 06:34.280 way of thinking about open source might be a little bit unusual to a lot of open source 06:34.280 --> 06:38.600 maintainers because the value of open source is pretty obvious to you if you're working 06:39.880 --> 06:43.800 on it every day but if you're talking to policy makers kind of having this 06:44.600 --> 06:49.640 kind of quantitative, economic evidence is really important to tell them this is why you should 06:49.640 --> 06:54.600 do something about it because you might care about the economy and then this is how you should 06:55.960 --> 07:03.080 approach the problem. Right now we're in a really critical point in the EU budget negotiations 07:03.080 --> 07:09.640 because the EU always sets its budget in multi-year circles. So currently we're kind of in the 07:09.640 --> 07:19.000 multi-annual financial framework or MFF for 2021 to 2027 and this year they're going to start 07:19.080 --> 07:24.520 negotiating the next MFF so basically we're talking about setting up a fund for the time 07:25.080 --> 07:31.640 2028 going forward and this is like very long term things so it's important to do this ground 07:31.640 --> 07:39.160 work now to be able to influence the next MFF. So here I've just broken down to you what the current 07:39.160 --> 07:45.880 MFF looks like so basically what does the EU spend money on in very large terms and you can see 07:45.880 --> 07:51.160 like natural resources that's most the agriculture so that's like one area where the EU is spending a 07:51.160 --> 07:59.160 lot of money cohesion is making the economic differences between the member states in the EU smaller 07:59.160 --> 08:04.360 because like if you want to have a single market it's important that there aren't these huge 08:04.360 --> 08:10.680 economic difference so the vast majority of EU funding goes into those two areas and actually 08:10.760 --> 08:17.000 everything that is about research and innovation you might be familiar with the NGI project which 08:17.000 --> 08:21.640 does a lot of open source funding that's part of the EU's research funding what we have under 08:21.640 --> 08:28.360 innovation here. What we're talking about is more kind of long term maintenance of open source 08:28.360 --> 08:36.840 software and the place that this would best fit sort of in the EU budget right now is this digital 08:36.920 --> 08:44.520 Europe program which you can see is a tiny tiny part of this broader industry and innovation funding. 08:44.520 --> 08:53.080 So it's really I would say like from the perspective of an EU politician not a huge sum of 08:53.080 --> 08:58.120 money that we're talking about but nevertheless if you look at what how big the digital Europe 08:58.120 --> 09:06.040 program is and how big the sovereign tech funds spending has been over the last two years it's 09:06.040 --> 09:12.680 still like orders of magnitude bigger than that and actually even if all of the submissions 09:12.680 --> 09:17.960 that the sovereign tech fund has received in the first two years had been funded it would have been 09:17.960 --> 09:26.120 this much so we can do a lot even with a relatively small program. How these negotiations are going to 09:26.120 --> 09:31.960 work in very broad terms is there's going to be a public consultation sometime in the spring 09:31.960 --> 09:37.960 where people can basically participate that's something that we encourage you all to do 09:38.920 --> 09:45.720 but and then all of the member states of the EU are going to get together with the European Commission 09:45.720 --> 09:54.600 to decide on the size of those big pieces of the pie chart that part we're not particularly interested in 09:54.600 --> 09:59.880 because that's more like okay is the EU going to spend more on agriculture than before or not. 09:59.960 --> 10:06.360 What we are interested in is when they start renewing those different programs such as digital 10:06.360 --> 10:13.000 Europe this particular program might not continue to exist beyond 2028 but they're certainly going 10:13.000 --> 10:19.560 to be some form of a digital program and that's kind of what we want to target to make sure 10:19.560 --> 10:24.280 that open source is going to be part of that and that's those negotiations are probably going to 10:24.280 --> 10:30.360 start in the early fall so by then we want to have this feasibility study ready and then it would 10:30.360 --> 10:38.840 be adopted for the period of 2028 onward. Why doesn't the current digital Europe program already 10:38.840 --> 10:45.560 address the needs of open source? There are a number of reasons for that one is the digital 10:45.560 --> 10:52.440 Europe regulation which sets out the digital Europe has these five areas where it is spending and 10:52.440 --> 10:57.880 it's very much sectoral so usually the way that they think about this is like okay we want 10:57.880 --> 11:03.800 we have particular areas that we think are important like high performance computing or AI and 11:03.800 --> 11:09.480 then they spend a lot of money there but open source is really much more horizontal if you have a 11:09.480 --> 11:17.000 critical dependency it's going to be used in the environmental sector it's going to be used in 11:17.000 --> 11:21.480 research it's going to be used in the financial sector so you can't really break it down in 11:21.480 --> 11:28.360 this sector away and another really important barrier to open source is that digital Europe funding 11:28.360 --> 11:34.840 only goes to EU companies so it's a particular way of thinking about sort of subsidies it's like 11:34.840 --> 11:40.040 okay where the European Union we're going to support European companies and when you want to support 11:40.040 --> 11:44.520 open source you have to think about this differently like for example we have to find ways of 11:44.520 --> 11:51.080 giving money directly to natural persons or to projects that might have participants from different 11:51.080 --> 11:58.920 parts of the world so one way that this could be done better for example is in the cyber resilience 11:58.920 --> 12:03.480 act which I think a lot of open source people are thinking about more as a problem but there are 12:03.480 --> 12:10.520 some interesting things in there like for example it says that the European Union can do a dependency 12:10.520 --> 12:15.560 assessment so basically collecting data from all the European companies that are putting products on the 12:15.560 --> 12:23.560 market and find out which open source projects are dependencies there and we could imagine a future 12:23.560 --> 12:29.960 funding program that doesn't say you have to be a European company to get funding but instead it could 12:29.960 --> 12:35.560 say you have to be a dependency that European companies rely on and that's still going to benefit the 12:35.560 --> 12:43.320 EU economy so right now we're kind of at the start of this process this is the president of the 12:43.320 --> 12:50.200 European Commission and she has said that she wants her next budget for this period after 2020 12:50.200 --> 12:57.080 a to be policy based so we have to explain how does open source funding benefit European policies 12:57.640 --> 13:02.840 this is kind of what the discourse looks like right now this is the Commission by President 13:03.160 --> 13:09.320 responsible for a lot of digital industry topics and she thinks open source is a great thing 13:09.320 --> 13:14.040 but she still thinks about it in terms of sectors like for example she mentioned mentioned 13:14.040 --> 13:20.280 connectivity electronic ID AI so it's always like use cases and we have to change this conversation 13:20.280 --> 13:25.880 to show that open source is basically infrastructure that benefits all parts of the European 13:25.880 --> 13:32.520 economy so how do we do that for that I guess I give the floor to Nick so one of the vital aspects 13:32.520 --> 13:36.440 of this study is that we really want to link it up with contemporary policy discourses that are 13:36.440 --> 13:40.360 actually going to resonate with policy makers so we're going to talk a little bit 13:40.360 --> 13:43.880 allow in some of those dominant narratives so Felix is already talked about the middle one 13:43.880 --> 13:48.680 cybersecurity of course it's imperative that we continue to make a case for cybersecurity but 13:49.400 --> 13:53.720 two others were talking about our competitiveness and digital sovereignty so competitiveness you may 13:53.720 --> 13:58.360 have seen in the news had a big splash with this report that was put out by druggy the so-called 13:58.440 --> 14:05.160 druggy report Mario Draghi from Italy and it proposes an annual investment of 800 billion euros 14:05.160 --> 14:10.360 to enhance digital infrastructure open sources is not mentioned as part of that but we do see 14:10.360 --> 14:15.960 that there is this kind of notional kind of number out there a subset of which could be put towards 14:16.920 --> 14:23.560 open source maintenance and security funding so a little bit more about that why is open source 14:23.560 --> 14:29.080 potentially important to the Jackie manifesto when interpreted right we think that there is 14:29.080 --> 14:34.840 clearly a complementary use case for open source maintenance and security funding in the 14:34.840 --> 14:39.400 allocation of that funding through two open source projects would be strategic in supporting the 14:39.400 --> 14:44.840 broader goals around digital infrastructure competitiveness as a policy tool would promote collaboration 14:44.840 --> 14:49.240 between enterprises and open source communities something that would resonate very much with the 14:50.200 --> 14:54.200 commission and we want to ensure that regulations support both proprietary and open source 14:54.200 --> 14:59.720 innovation models but that open source infrastructure the powers that proprietary software 14:59.720 --> 15:04.520 is well maintained and taken care of. Additionally there's this talk of digital sovereignty 15:05.080 --> 15:11.400 digital sovereignty is kind of a buzzword so to speak and it can be very political but there is this 15:11.400 --> 15:17.320 kind of noional idea out there that Europe and Don Big Tech that Europe has been quote colonized by 15:17.400 --> 15:21.800 Big Tech has crecina kafara would put it and that there's a need for investment in sovereign 15:21.800 --> 15:27.160 digital infrastructures and so we've seen this with the euro stack initiative that is calling for 15:27.160 --> 15:31.880 critical investment in strategic sectors of the economy that are supported by digital infrastructure 15:32.520 --> 15:37.880 but we also see it in a number of different initiatives whether it be things like digital 15:37.880 --> 15:45.160 commons or or DPI or what have you. So what is the focus of our proposed study we kind of 15:45.160 --> 15:51.480 alluded to it a little bit already but really what we want to do is assess the opportunity 15:51.480 --> 15:57.480 and feasibility for a fund at the EU level. So we will have a two-part study and what the goal is 15:57.480 --> 16:01.800 is to create a white paper that will have an implementable policy proposal with a number that 16:01.800 --> 16:08.040 is a defensible impact up in social and economic research. So the guiding question here is what 16:08.040 --> 16:13.000 is the opportunity and feasibility of building and implementing an EU-wide funding instrument 16:13.000 --> 16:17.400 modeled after the sovereign tech agency which is focused on sustainability, maintenance, 16:17.400 --> 16:22.600 and security of critical open source software and so we plan to have that ready for the summer 16:22.600 --> 16:27.080 but that will be a lot of work in the coming ones for us. Who is involved in the project so at the 16:27.080 --> 16:33.480 bottom you'll see the three kind of research partners open for Europe from hope for ISI based in Germany 16:33.480 --> 16:40.280 and GitHub and then at the top we have kind of support from sovereign tech agency and the government 16:40.360 --> 16:46.040 of France, D-NOOM. We've also had expressions of interest from some other governments that are 16:46.040 --> 16:51.000 interested in participating in the research or at least learning from it and so we're hoping to 16:51.000 --> 16:55.320 onboard other partners as the research goes on as well. In particular I think the support of the 16:55.320 --> 17:00.680 sovereign tech agency is of course vital for us they have data which is going to be you know 17:00.680 --> 17:04.200 highly relevant for us in kind of building an economic case that we can present to the commission. 17:04.840 --> 17:11.000 So here are some of the high-level objectives of our study. I won't go too much into detail on this 17:11.000 --> 17:16.680 but you know this is why we're doing this effort and the goals for the final white paper are to 17:16.680 --> 17:20.440 really kind of lay the landscape and the opportunity so to find the scope of the challenge to 17:20.440 --> 17:25.880 English the different maintenance investments and then establish a use case or a case for a business 17:25.880 --> 17:31.320 case for a rather appropriate funding levels and we really want that to be rigorous if it all 17:31.400 --> 17:37.160 possible to the extent that it is. Finally we want to assess the economic and legal feasibility 17:37.160 --> 17:41.800 we'll bring you bringing onboard illegal consultant to actually help analyze the different setups 17:41.800 --> 17:46.360 that we mentioned before and we'll be offering financing and government options and the 17:46.360 --> 17:53.400 attendant policy recommendations that actually actually make this implementable. So what can 17:53.400 --> 17:58.920 happen to make the EU listen to whatever recommendations we make? Well in time for June we need 17:59.080 --> 18:04.280 this feasibility study ready but we also need an advocacy plan and we actually need to mobilize 18:04.280 --> 18:09.400 the engagement of the open source ecosystem so that's why Felix and I are here at the funding 18:09.400 --> 18:12.760 the fossil ecosystem dev room we're really trying to make the case for you all getting involved 18:12.760 --> 18:17.080 in this work as well and so Felix is going to finish things off by offering a sort of 18:17.080 --> 18:22.440 call-to-action around steps that you guys can take over the next months to get involved in this work. 18:22.840 --> 18:29.000 All right obviously we're still sort of at the beginning of all of this but we really 18:29.000 --> 18:34.840 will need all of you to make the case why this is something that people care about I mean 18:34.840 --> 18:40.840 members of the European Parliament are motivated by their voters, by their constituents and the 18:40.840 --> 18:46.200 things that they care about like for example if you have a company that relies on open source 18:46.520 --> 18:52.760 technologies that's something you can talk to your representatives about the European Commission 18:52.760 --> 18:59.000 cares very much about these large macro economic questions like how is the EU going to be competitive 18:59.000 --> 19:05.160 in the future? Member States governments can have very different things that motivate them so for 19:05.160 --> 19:13.160 example it can be about cybersecurity about defending against cyber attacks from Russia it can be 19:13.240 --> 19:22.440 about democracy and resilience and so it's really important to be able to translate the importance 19:22.440 --> 19:30.440 of open source maintenance into these different policy framings so in terms of practical things 19:30.440 --> 19:35.240 that you can do sometime in the spring there's going to be this public consultation by the European 19:35.240 --> 19:41.720 Commission they're probably going to be a lot of responses from very different like farmers from 19:42.680 --> 19:47.400 researchers so I think it's really important that the open source organizations but also 19:47.400 --> 19:56.680 individuals involved in open source will participate in that it's also I think really useful for us 19:56.680 --> 20:05.480 if you have great case studies or already existing research numbers that can help us especially 20:05.480 --> 20:10.760 develop this economic argument I think that's really valuable for us to exchange about 20:12.040 --> 20:18.840 do you want to say something on writing about success stories but yeah I think it's always 20:19.640 --> 20:30.840 important like when you think about a lot of these open source basic technologies are not necessarily 20:30.840 --> 20:37.160 known to policy makers because a lot of it is kind of at the level of programming languages, 20:37.160 --> 20:41.640 libraries, things like that it's not necessarily the end user applications that they will have 20:41.640 --> 20:50.680 heard of so if you have a great success story that is understandable to a non-technical audience 20:50.680 --> 20:57.000 it's really valuable to write that down or to do a video about it or talk about it because those 20:57.000 --> 21:03.080 are also things that can then be reused in those kinds of communications to policy makers 21:03.560 --> 21:10.520 and yeah finally finding champions for open source so MEPs members of the European Parliament when 21:10.520 --> 21:17.080 I was in the European Parliament the way that I would go about this would be to do a lot of research 21:17.080 --> 21:21.880 into the backgrounds of the people that I was talking to and see how the thing that I was trying 21:21.880 --> 21:27.880 to achieve matters to them so like to give you a practical example I wanted to get rid of 21:27.960 --> 21:33.960 geoblocking so basically this video is not available in your country kind of messages and then 21:33.960 --> 21:40.200 I would try to find champions for that in also different political groups and so for example 21:40.200 --> 21:47.320 I was really able to find a great ally in a colleague who happened to be a former professional 21:47.320 --> 21:52.600 cricket player and was unable to watch the cricket in Brussels because it was geoblocked so like 21:53.560 --> 21:59.960 I think yeah it's going to be really important also with the current members of Parliament to find 21:59.960 --> 22:06.040 people who really care about that and I happen to know more the German members of Parliament in their 22:06.040 --> 22:11.320 backgrounds but there might be somebody in your country who maybe has a software engineering background 22:11.320 --> 22:18.200 or who for some other reason might be particularly interested in that so reach out to the people you 22:18.280 --> 22:24.680 voted for or maybe you didn't vote for but who might want your votes in the future and yeah 22:24.680 --> 22:30.120 maybe see if there's somebody who would be a good champion for this topic in your country 22:32.440 --> 22:38.360 yeah and the same also applies to the national government so all EU decision making is kind of 22:39.000 --> 22:44.920 complex you have the European Commission making proposals but they're of course also listening to 22:44.920 --> 22:50.200 what is happening in the member states so I think for example the fact that the sovereignty 22:50.200 --> 22:56.120 agency has this great support of the German government and that it's being put on stages at the 22:56.120 --> 23:02.040 United Nations as a good example is extremely helpful to make the case for the European Commission 23:02.040 --> 23:08.520 to take action in this area because they want to of course elevate success stories so if you have 23:09.160 --> 23:14.840 a good open source program in your country especially if it's in EU member state talk to your 23:14.840 --> 23:25.080 government representatives about also bringing this up at a European level I think that was our last 23:25.080 --> 23:30.760 slide you know this doesn't say anything about innovation funding necessarily so you might have 23:30.760 --> 23:35.880 seen other talks here at Boston today about you know getting more money for the NGI extending 23:35.960 --> 23:39.480 the life of the NGI getting money into smaller open source projects that isn't really what we're 23:39.480 --> 23:43.480 talking about here so that is a limitation but you know the same principles that we just talked about in 23:43.480 --> 23:48.840 the last slides apply for that as well but yeah we're happy to take some questions now I think we have 23:49.480 --> 23:51.480 eight minutes yeah 23:51.720 --> 24:05.960 yes so my question is are you looking at the next generation you and resilience and 24:05.960 --> 24:13.320 record facility funds because you just mentioned we need to find something that resonates with 24:13.320 --> 24:18.920 whatever the MEP is at 24 and right now the problem I'm looking at an article from two as 24:19.640 --> 24:27.080 the commission to lose on rooms on how counters deploy unspent cash they have 500 billion euros 24:27.080 --> 24:34.040 that they've been unable to disperse and the latest projection from the European central bank 24:34.040 --> 24:41.960 is at least a billion euros are going to be unspent so the commission proposes as a 24:42.680 --> 24:47.800 there is much solution to it just give this money to big corporations they're faster 24:47.800 --> 24:57.000 expanding the money so which I mean it's true so if you want to give a solution to 24:57.000 --> 25:03.400 politician yeah it would be not to ask 20 million euros because that doesn't solve anything but it would 25:03.400 --> 25:11.000 be to ask them five billion euros until them just give them to these companies and we will spend 25:11.560 --> 25:16.360 so in short the question was whether we've looked into other funding instruments the 25:16.360 --> 25:20.120 short answer is yes and Felix can talk a little bit more while why we talked about digital 25:20.120 --> 25:28.280 European particular so the next generation you fund that you're talking about is part of the 25:28.280 --> 25:36.600 current MFF we are not looking at trying to take money out of existing programs for this project 25:36.680 --> 25:43.800 but we are rather talking about including open source in the next EU budget from the start so 25:43.800 --> 25:49.720 that's not to say that it isn't possible or that somebody else shouldn't be doing that but what 25:49.720 --> 25:58.200 we're talking about is the period 2028 going forward and I guess the reason for that is sort of 25:58.200 --> 26:04.200 strategy versus tactics in a way like we're trying to lay the groundwork that when the next EU 26:04.200 --> 26:09.240 budget gets negotiated open source is kind of thought about from the start that doesn't mean that 26:09.240 --> 26:14.360 from a tactical perspective it might not also be a good idea to try to jump on an opportunity 26:14.360 --> 26:19.560 when it arises but we're doing a little bit more kind of long-term work to basically try to 26:19.560 --> 26:25.000 mainstream open source funding into the EU budget in the long term because at the end of the day this 26:25.000 --> 26:31.160 is infrastructure I think open source maintenance so we should be thinking about it sort of in the 26:31.160 --> 26:37.000 same way that we're talking thinking about agricultural policy in the EU that it's not something 26:37.000 --> 26:42.440 that you have to kind of make the case for every time so that the question shouldn't be 26:42.840 --> 26:47.400 should there be an open source fund but the question should be how much money is going to be 26:47.400 --> 26:52.760 allocated to our open source infrastructure this year around does that make sense? 26:53.640 --> 27:02.840 Yes, I think there's a question and then we'll talk more at the end 27:03.880 --> 27:08.200 yeah did somebody else have a question yeah thanks for the presentation like what happens 27:08.200 --> 27:12.920 generally is that the big companies like France and Germany have a very strong and well-designed 27:12.920 --> 27:17.320 policies they integrate them in their own governmental stuff for example you have a total 27:17.320 --> 27:21.800 total afar what you have also the same thing for Germany everybody has their own things but when 27:21.800 --> 27:25.480 it comes to the small countries practically they don't have me the capacity maybe 27:25.480 --> 27:31.960 neither the design or the necessity to actually implement that so like whenever you see a document 27:31.960 --> 27:39.960 even in interoperable EU that we are website aimed and all those that are there you see a little 27:39.960 --> 27:44.760 bit the distance that it's not really recognized like the two three four biggest players are 27:44.760 --> 27:50.840 really taking everybody on there are ways to reconcile that and you can actually just kind of 27:51.880 --> 27:57.080 concentrate on the project that make our sense or make you can specify specific to the 27:57.080 --> 28:01.480 like for example public administration training everything should be going in that thing but like 28:01.480 --> 28:07.400 I'll have you thought on handling this kind of big small big fish small fish kind of the 28:07.400 --> 28:12.440 dependencies so yeah the question is around how we're thinking about kind of the discrepancy 28:12.440 --> 28:17.480 in action between kind of some of the larger EU member states and the smaller ones I can say that 28:17.960 --> 28:22.040 one of the key parts of the outreach that we'll be doing in the coming months is to the so-called 28:22.040 --> 28:27.960 frugal states so countries like Netherlands Denmark has a EU presidency coming up Sweden 28:28.520 --> 28:32.520 these are all countries which are a bit more conservative and they're spending and so we'll be 28:32.520 --> 28:38.440 looking to advocate to them but it's also around building coalitions with people from different countries 28:38.440 --> 28:43.080 that have you know different levels of bargaining power but that being said you know the reason 28:43.080 --> 28:46.840 we put friends and Germany up on that slide are because they do have a lot of weight and they can 28:46.840 --> 28:51.560 but get behind an initiative behind us like this but we do want to plurality of actors to be 28:51.560 --> 28:56.680 involved in something we're actively thinking about do you want to add anything Felix you didn't 28:56.680 --> 29:02.280 mention anything about EU AI act in a safety where it seems like open source compensation are 29:02.280 --> 29:09.720 help make do you think would that be a good connection from policy perspective so the question is 29:09.720 --> 29:15.480 if we have looked at the AI act and the work that is being done around AI safety and open source 29:15.560 --> 29:25.720 there I'm trying to go a little bit away from the sexual approach because I mean of course open source 29:25.720 --> 29:31.160 has been a big debate in the context of the AI act and of course the EU is spending a lot of 29:31.160 --> 29:39.000 money on AI but I think we need to find a different way of thinking about basically open source 29:39.000 --> 29:46.760 not as a means to an end like AI or high-performance computing or other kind of areas that the EU 29:46.760 --> 29:57.320 is focusing on in spending and treated more like infrastructure spending so you know we we don't 29:57.320 --> 30:05.720 know necessarily what will be the next sort of sectors that the EU will focus on but we have some 30:05.800 --> 30:13.720 ideas but really the idea is to get kind of open source mainstreamed as I think it's 30:13.720 --> 30:19.160 undoubtable that AI development wouldn't exist in the form we have it without open source but 30:19.160 --> 30:27.720 that is true for almost every industry so yeah we have one minute so very short question 30:28.680 --> 30:35.000 I'm in the pouring work about in purchasing regulations and better levels purchasing 30:35.000 --> 30:43.640 regulations and short how do we make the value of levels of administration by less PDFs and to 30:43.640 --> 30:53.400 write more code or maybe we may get it but if the purchasing studies and analysis and stuff next 30:53.400 --> 30:56.760 Goodbye for this interesting work I