WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:07.000 Thanks for your attention. 00:07.000 --> 00:12.000 Hi, I'm Missy Take, for NAMI. 00:12.000 --> 00:18.000 I use state-end pronouns, and I want to talk to you about a bit about the server side of things now. 00:18.000 --> 00:23.000 We just heard a lot about what the DeltaChart line is doing. 00:23.000 --> 00:29.000 So I'm also from DeltaChart team, but technically, this is now about chat mail, which is a separate project, 00:29.000 --> 00:36.000 which we are also doing, oh sorry, I got the logo wrong actually. 00:36.000 --> 00:40.000 So chat mail is not an open-source project. 00:40.000 --> 00:44.000 It gets up on the DeltaChart's chat mail. 00:44.000 --> 00:46.000 It's easy to find. 00:46.000 --> 00:48.000 But why do we actually do this? 00:48.000 --> 00:51.000 Because actually it's not that it's an email client, right? 00:51.000 --> 00:55.000 We already worked with basically any SMTP and I'm a server. 00:55.000 --> 00:58.000 So why actually focus on the chat mail server? 00:58.000 --> 01:06.000 We had a lot of reasons, which basically, yeah, make it more useful at some point to think about, okay? 01:06.000 --> 01:11.000 But how can you optimize a meta server so it works for chatting? 01:11.000 --> 01:15.000 One big problem, the app, for example, is there's this unique expectation. 01:15.000 --> 01:20.000 People install our app, and then we ask them to, for an email in the passwords, 01:20.000 --> 01:24.000 and then people think like, ham, and you already an app. 01:24.000 --> 01:28.000 Why do I need to give you my email password actually? 01:28.000 --> 01:30.000 Like, what password should I enter here now? 01:30.000 --> 01:33.000 And it was very confusing actually. 01:33.000 --> 01:37.000 And then again, it's also, do we even want users to have to memorize passwords? 01:37.000 --> 01:40.000 In many ways, that's super inconvenient. 01:40.000 --> 01:43.000 password managers are not very widespread after all. 01:43.000 --> 01:49.000 So actually, you are just onboarded right with the QR codes, 01:49.000 --> 01:52.000 or maybe just by clicking on create new profile. 01:52.000 --> 01:55.000 Yeah, you didn't actually have to choose the password. 01:55.000 --> 01:57.000 You didn't have to remember one. 01:57.000 --> 02:01.000 There was one generated actually because it is an email account after all. 02:01.000 --> 02:02.000 But also you exercise. 02:02.000 --> 02:06.000 We don't really want users to have to border with that. 02:06.000 --> 02:09.000 And when they migrate to a different device, 02:09.000 --> 02:13.000 then they basically have to export a backup imported to the new device. 02:13.000 --> 02:17.000 But it will work without actually logging in somewhere. 02:17.000 --> 02:21.000 But it's rather file based and access to the device based. 02:21.000 --> 02:24.000 And you have also didn't like that. 02:24.000 --> 02:27.000 You need to give personal data for registration. 02:27.000 --> 02:30.000 We don't like the rate limits many servers have, 02:30.000 --> 02:32.000 because chatting is fast. 02:32.000 --> 02:35.000 And especially if you have a web XEC app where people 02:35.000 --> 02:38.000 edits like in some editor files together, 02:38.000 --> 02:41.000 like that, of course, causes a lot of emails, 02:41.000 --> 02:44.000 which transmit the data to each other. 02:44.000 --> 02:47.000 Or if it's up, we are annoying. 02:47.000 --> 02:50.000 And of course, we also had a long standing grudge 02:50.000 --> 02:52.000 on the centralization of the email system. 02:52.000 --> 02:54.000 So we wanted to make that different too. 02:54.000 --> 02:58.000 And really focus on how can we further decentralize 02:58.000 --> 03:04.000 what is currently more centralized than it has used to be. 03:04.000 --> 03:05.000 Yeah. 03:05.000 --> 03:10.000 So basically, chat mail is a special kind of email server set 03:10.000 --> 03:12.000 with some configuration. 03:12.000 --> 03:15.000 And the main thing why we did it in the beginning 03:15.000 --> 03:17.000 was we wanted an open sign-up server, 03:17.000 --> 03:20.000 we don't need to give any personal data to just get an account 03:20.000 --> 03:22.000 and start chatting. 03:22.000 --> 03:24.000 Because, yeah, if you click in the app, 03:24.000 --> 03:26.000 create and you profile choose a name, 03:26.000 --> 03:28.000 agree and create, something you have an account. 03:28.000 --> 03:30.000 Like that's all you need to do. 03:30.000 --> 03:32.000 That was the goal here. 03:32.000 --> 03:34.000 But then again, we didn't want to become 03:34.000 --> 03:36.000 the next matrix.org. 03:36.000 --> 03:38.000 You maybe you know the login flow of matrix, 03:38.000 --> 03:42.000 element, for example, everyone in the end is on matrix.org. 03:42.000 --> 03:43.000 That's awesome of what we wanted. 03:43.000 --> 03:45.000 So from the beginning focused on, 03:45.000 --> 03:48.000 okay, how can we make this decentralized as possible? 03:48.000 --> 03:53.000 So right now, we have this one main server where you onboard 03:53.000 --> 03:55.000 when you just click, agree and create, 03:55.000 --> 03:57.000 and don't go through the hazard of 03:57.000 --> 03:58.000 cleaning one of these QR codes, 03:58.000 --> 04:02.000 or clicking on use other server and trying to find another server. 04:02.000 --> 04:04.000 You go there at some point. 04:04.000 --> 04:06.000 But yeah, for that, at the moment, 04:06.000 --> 04:11.000 we are building up a decentralized chat mail server network. 04:12.000 --> 04:15.000 And yeah, the main way to do that is to make 04:15.000 --> 04:18.000 email hosting as easy as possible again. 04:18.000 --> 04:20.000 When I started doing sysatman stuff, 04:20.000 --> 04:23.000 I basically told all of this myself about having 04:23.000 --> 04:25.000 a professional education or so, 04:25.000 --> 04:28.000 yeah, people told me don't ever do mayservas. 04:28.000 --> 04:31.000 You probably heard of that notion as well, right? 04:31.000 --> 04:34.000 So yeah, we want to have a mayserver 04:34.000 --> 04:39.000 which you can tell your teacher children how to do sysatman. 04:39.000 --> 04:41.000 And yeah, it's quite easy. 04:41.000 --> 04:44.000 Basically, you clone our repository. 04:44.000 --> 04:47.000 It comes up a small command line tool. 04:47.000 --> 04:50.000 You can use the init command to generate 04:50.000 --> 04:51.000 a config file. 04:51.000 --> 04:55.000 You can use the run command to then run a set-up script. 04:55.000 --> 04:59.000 And which already you just set up the server. 04:59.000 --> 05:01.000 And maybe you know the pioneer who knows 05:01.000 --> 05:03.000 Pian for here? 05:03.000 --> 05:05.000 Okay, who knows Ansible? 05:05.000 --> 05:07.000 Yeah. 05:07.000 --> 05:11.000 Ansible is Pian for just with the demo files. 05:11.000 --> 05:15.000 Pian for as Ansible with Python files instead of the demo files. 05:15.000 --> 05:16.000 It's amazing. 05:16.000 --> 05:20.000 You can do all your comfort logic in Python instead of this 05:20.000 --> 05:21.000 Yamil shit. 05:21.000 --> 05:25.000 You can use Python libraries in your deployments stuff. 05:25.000 --> 05:26.000 It's really great. 05:26.000 --> 05:29.000 I will not go into this here, but check it out. 05:29.000 --> 05:32.000 And yeah, we are basically hiding a Pian for script 05:32.000 --> 05:35.000 inside the CM deploy run command. 05:36.000 --> 05:40.000 Yeah, and we have a script which generates all the DNS records you need. 05:40.000 --> 05:43.000 I mean, that's one of the big pains for many mail 05:43.000 --> 05:46.000 admins or know how does this decim stuff work again. 05:46.000 --> 05:49.000 Or how do I set my SPF record properly? 05:49.000 --> 05:52.000 Like this command just gives you a phone file output 05:52.000 --> 05:54.000 which you can copy paste. 05:54.000 --> 05:56.000 Either in some weapon interface or really 05:56.000 --> 05:59.000 as a phone file you just uploaded. 05:59.000 --> 06:02.000 Yeah, that's, you know the first project which did that, 06:02.000 --> 06:04.000 but I think it may serve a project nowadays. 06:05.000 --> 06:09.000 Really needs to do this because otherwise you will never get people 06:09.000 --> 06:11.000 to just start with this. 06:11.000 --> 06:15.000 Yeah, and then we have because our setup is also very tested with 06:15.000 --> 06:18.000 Python tests for everything and you can just run the 06:18.000 --> 06:21.000 deploy test to verify that everything works. 06:21.000 --> 06:24.000 We also use that for developing for our CI. 06:24.000 --> 06:27.000 So yeah, I think it's as painless as it can get. 06:27.000 --> 06:30.000 And if you find a way to make it more painless, 06:30.000 --> 06:31.000 please open an issue. 06:31.000 --> 06:33.000 That would be great. 06:33.000 --> 06:36.000 It's also customizable in many ways. 06:36.000 --> 06:40.000 If you don't like what we use for our main instance, 06:40.000 --> 06:42.000 then it's not so hard. 06:42.000 --> 06:46.000 It's basically using post-fix and softcard because of course 06:46.000 --> 06:49.000 and open decim, 06:49.000 --> 06:51.000 acmetool and angenex. 06:51.000 --> 06:55.000 So it actually comes with its own kind of auto-generated website 06:55.000 --> 06:57.000 which you can edit and mark down also. 06:57.000 --> 07:00.000 And if you check out some of those other providers 07:00.000 --> 07:03.000 which we put on the handout, they all made some edits, 07:03.000 --> 07:06.000 like someone translated it to Italian, 07:06.000 --> 07:09.000 someone else put a warning against fascists on their website, 07:09.000 --> 07:11.000 stuff like that. 07:11.000 --> 07:14.000 So it's really customizable there. 07:14.000 --> 07:16.000 And yeah, we have this Python for a base clip, 07:16.000 --> 07:17.000 for sending it up and upgrading. 07:17.000 --> 07:19.000 And right now it's Python for base, 07:19.000 --> 07:21.000 but also some people in the community are working on 07:21.000 --> 07:23.000 Chef, Docker, and Ansible setups. 07:23.000 --> 07:26.000 That's not something we're interested in very much right now, 07:26.000 --> 07:29.000 personally, but it would be great, of course, 07:29.000 --> 07:30.000 if people do that. 07:30.000 --> 07:33.000 We don't really have an expertise in these setups. 07:33.000 --> 07:35.000 So if you want to work on that, 07:35.000 --> 07:38.000 yeah, you're invited. 07:38.000 --> 07:42.000 And yeah, and right now we have around a dozen 07:42.000 --> 07:45.000 chat main servers out there, a bit more I think. 07:45.000 --> 07:48.000 We have some announced on this website on our website. 07:48.000 --> 07:53.000 And for example, those on the handout are mostly there, 07:53.000 --> 07:56.000 I think I put one there which isn't publicly advertised, 07:56.000 --> 07:58.000 there's also something to do with censorship. 07:58.000 --> 08:02.000 And because, yeah, authoritarian regimes want to, 08:02.000 --> 08:05.000 yeah, want to block these things. 08:05.000 --> 08:08.000 And so it's always good to have some service out there, 08:08.000 --> 08:09.000 which are not public. 08:09.000 --> 08:12.000 Let's read the kind of views. 08:12.000 --> 08:17.000 Yeah, basically one other thing that was very important for us, 08:17.000 --> 08:20.000 because one of the big problems of our time next to 08:20.000 --> 08:25.000 billionaires and authoritarian regimes is the climate catastrophe. 08:25.000 --> 08:29.000 So we want to be introduced as minimal resources as possible. 08:29.000 --> 08:32.000 And yeah, a recipe or the cheapest VPS you can find, 08:32.000 --> 08:38.000 is totally enough to support hundreds of users, maybe thousands. 08:38.000 --> 08:41.000 And also, it's actually not so much an email server as you know it, 08:41.000 --> 08:45.000 because we don't actually store the messages. 08:45.000 --> 08:48.000 We are not a long time storage provider, 08:48.000 --> 08:50.000 which many messages have to be. 08:50.000 --> 08:51.000 That's what works like that. 08:51.000 --> 08:53.000 That basically, to download the message and then 08:53.000 --> 08:57.000 stay on the device, and the lesions are not necessarily synced 08:57.000 --> 08:59.000 between devices. 08:59.000 --> 09:02.000 So you can have like four gigabyte mailbox on your phone, 09:02.000 --> 09:06.000 but I have just a hundred megabyte mailbox on the server. 09:06.000 --> 09:10.000 And it basically deletes the message as soon as it downloads it, 09:10.000 --> 09:12.000 except if you have a multi device set up, 09:12.000 --> 09:15.000 then it needs to be on the server a bit longer. 09:15.000 --> 09:18.000 So the other devices has a heavy chance of downloading it. 09:18.000 --> 09:22.000 But we delete every message after like 30 days, I think. 09:22.000 --> 09:25.000 Unconditionally, what it was, you know, not. 09:25.000 --> 09:29.000 It's really more an email router than an email server. 09:29.000 --> 09:33.000 Yeah, and the other nice thing about having a very minimal state, 09:33.000 --> 09:36.000 goes through like state, right? 09:36.000 --> 09:40.000 Basically, we do the open sign-up in a way 09:40.000 --> 09:43.000 that the login request. 09:43.000 --> 09:46.000 When you login in the account doesn't exist yet, 09:46.000 --> 09:51.000 the account is created instead of the same password you used for logging in. 09:51.000 --> 09:55.000 So actually, if you delete an account server side, 09:55.000 --> 10:00.000 you cause maybe like you accidentally do an RM-RF slash or whatever, 10:00.000 --> 10:05.000 and you just run CMD Cloud Run again and set up the server again, 10:05.000 --> 10:09.000 the next second GF of the user logs in again, 10:09.000 --> 10:13.000 the account is recreated, and nothing is lost. 10:13.000 --> 10:16.000 So actually for months, for our main instance, 10:16.000 --> 10:20.000 the tens of thousands of users, we didn't have a backup. 10:20.000 --> 10:25.000 Now, we do for by not, but in general, you actually, 10:25.000 --> 10:28.000 you don't really need to keep state, 10:28.000 --> 10:33.000 and this is all designed to make the minds of elements very free of worry. 10:33.000 --> 10:38.000 And yeah, to let children play with the stuff, basically. 10:38.000 --> 10:43.000 Okay, I'm going to bit more into some details, 10:43.000 --> 10:46.000 because you're probably already thought, 10:46.000 --> 10:48.000 oh, what they are running an open sign up, 10:48.000 --> 10:50.000 it may serve out there in the wild. 10:50.000 --> 10:53.000 What about them? 10:53.000 --> 10:56.000 I guess many of you do with spam on a daily basis, 10:56.000 --> 10:58.000 and are quite annoyed by it. 10:58.000 --> 11:01.000 We're taking a quite radical approach with it. 11:01.000 --> 11:05.000 We basically have no inbound spam filtering. 11:05.000 --> 11:08.000 It's not really necessary. 11:08.000 --> 11:11.000 None of our users really have many problems with spam, 11:11.000 --> 11:14.000 because the addresses are randomly generated, 11:14.000 --> 11:16.000 nine character, alpha numeric strings. 11:16.000 --> 11:20.000 No spammer, no spammer tries to brute force that 11:20.000 --> 11:22.000 to find out that address. 11:22.000 --> 11:24.000 And they're typically not published. 11:24.000 --> 11:27.000 It's a private messenger, usually you join with a QR code 11:27.000 --> 11:29.000 over an invite link. 11:29.000 --> 11:30.000 Yeah. 11:30.000 --> 11:33.000 So they actually don't really need inbound spam protection. 11:33.000 --> 11:36.000 And of course, then, outbound filter, 11:36.000 --> 11:39.000 we don't want to pollute the rest of the email network. 11:39.000 --> 11:42.000 I hope I think you're all very grateful for that. 11:42.000 --> 11:47.000 And so we basically do not let messages go outside, 11:47.000 --> 11:50.000 which are not PGP encrypted. 11:50.000 --> 11:54.000 And basically you need an open public open PGP key 11:54.000 --> 11:57.000 of the recipient to if you want to spam them. 11:57.000 --> 12:01.000 So that just doesn't happen so far. 12:01.000 --> 12:04.000 Please, if you like, realize that come to us, 12:04.000 --> 12:07.000 and we will figure out some solution. 12:07.000 --> 12:09.000 But yeah, so far. 12:09.000 --> 12:11.000 This is just not something that must do. 12:11.000 --> 12:13.000 It's not economic at all. 12:13.000 --> 12:17.000 And yeah, there are enough other ways out there to spam. 12:17.000 --> 12:20.000 And yeah, technically, we will, 12:20.000 --> 12:22.000 we also let through messages, 12:22.000 --> 12:25.000 which are part of the security on protocol handshake. 12:25.000 --> 12:28.000 I'll talk about that a bit more later. 12:30.000 --> 12:31.000 Yeah, basically. 12:31.000 --> 12:35.000 I want to accept that for people in the back. 12:35.000 --> 12:36.000 Consider this. 12:36.000 --> 12:38.000 I mean, open PGP. 12:39.000 --> 12:41.000 Open PGP is like known to have, 12:41.000 --> 12:44.000 to be like a problematic ecosystem. 12:44.000 --> 12:46.000 You know, it hasn't been mass adopted. 12:46.000 --> 12:50.000 And we're actually turning this into spam protection. 12:50.000 --> 12:53.000 They don't have our open PGP keys. 12:53.000 --> 12:55.000 We don't even have them ourselves. 12:55.000 --> 13:00.000 So, so even if you use one of these sign-ups 13:00.000 --> 13:05.000 for receiving newsletters and the database of this address gets leaked, 13:05.000 --> 13:08.000 you know, they cannot just create accounts and spam around 13:08.000 --> 13:11.000 because for the regular web sign-up, 13:11.000 --> 13:14.000 you don't specify your open PGP key. 13:14.000 --> 13:17.000 You know, so the database of email addresses 13:17.000 --> 13:20.000 is not usable for addressing spam 13:20.000 --> 13:22.000 to aid from September, so I was at least. 13:22.000 --> 13:26.000 So that's a very interesting turn in open PGP history. 13:30.000 --> 13:33.000 Yeah, and it works because of our contact discovery model. 13:33.000 --> 13:37.000 This is a bit different to how contact discovery usually works in email. 13:37.000 --> 13:41.000 Like, you pass around your business card with an email address on a door 13:41.000 --> 13:42.000 so. 13:42.000 --> 13:46.000 And instead, you would do that with a QR code like that on those handouts. 13:46.000 --> 13:47.000 And also chat. 13:47.000 --> 13:50.000 Basically, this QR code signifies an invite link. 13:50.000 --> 13:52.000 It's also printed on a handout actually. 13:52.000 --> 13:55.000 And this invite link can also be shared via a second channel 13:55.000 --> 13:56.000 if you don't need. 13:56.000 --> 13:59.000 But basically, either you are in person or you're remote, 13:59.000 --> 14:03.000 and one case you can do a QR code scanning introduction. 14:03.000 --> 14:05.000 And the other case you can send out an invite link. 14:05.000 --> 14:07.000 Maybe via the friend who introduces you. 14:07.000 --> 14:10.000 Or via the other second channel you might already have. 14:10.000 --> 14:13.000 But I mean, if you are somehow remotely in contact, 14:13.000 --> 14:15.000 then you have a contact channel, 14:15.000 --> 14:18.000 which you can use to spread that invite link. 14:18.000 --> 14:20.000 There's also one third big thing, 14:20.000 --> 14:24.000 which is also an interesting part of the queue join. 14:24.000 --> 14:26.000 If you're being added to chat group, 14:26.000 --> 14:29.000 you also get the public keys of everyone in the chat group, 14:29.000 --> 14:31.000 and they get yours. 14:31.000 --> 14:36.000 And not only that, it's also spreading the verification. 14:36.000 --> 14:41.000 The queue join is basically the idea that, 14:41.000 --> 14:45.000 yeah, who here does know how autocryp books. 14:45.000 --> 14:49.000 Maybe or not many, okay. 14:49.000 --> 14:51.000 How it does work. 14:52.000 --> 14:55.000 Yeah. 14:55.000 --> 14:57.000 Yeah, okay, I'll explain it a bit. 14:57.000 --> 15:02.000 Basically autocryp is a standard for OpenPJP key transmission. 15:02.000 --> 15:06.000 How can you exchange OpenPJP keys in band? 15:06.000 --> 15:10.000 So basically you put the key in a header, the autocryp header, 15:10.000 --> 15:12.000 you send it around, that's it. 15:12.000 --> 15:16.000 And that's vulnerable against machine and middle attacks. 15:16.000 --> 15:19.000 So, secure join is a standard, 15:19.000 --> 15:23.000 which protects against machine and middle attacks against autocryp keys. 15:23.000 --> 15:27.000 By putting the finger print, I mean it's simplified now, 15:27.000 --> 15:29.000 but you put the finger print into the queue arcode, 15:29.000 --> 15:31.000 or in the invite link. 15:31.000 --> 15:35.000 And then whoever scans the queue arcode or clicks on the invite link, 15:35.000 --> 15:39.000 can already, can then verify by sending around some emails 15:39.000 --> 15:41.000 back and forth between your two accounts. 15:41.000 --> 15:44.000 That actually, yes, this is your key, 15:44.000 --> 15:48.000 and it has not been tampered with by a server in the middle. 15:48.000 --> 15:52.000 There's some malicious machine in the middle. 15:52.000 --> 15:54.000 That's here, yeah. 15:54.000 --> 15:59.000 And no, no, I will come back to that later. 15:59.000 --> 16:06.000 And so the green checkmark you all see in the chat now. 16:06.000 --> 16:08.000 Here, this one. 16:08.000 --> 16:12.000 And this means that with all of those, 16:12.000 --> 16:17.000 56 check members, you now have MITM protected. 16:17.000 --> 16:20.000 OpenPGP and to end encryption. 16:20.000 --> 16:23.000 And I have no, who has been to a crypto party once, 16:23.000 --> 16:25.000 where you like exchange the fingerprints 16:25.000 --> 16:27.000 and verify it and sign everything. 16:27.000 --> 16:31.000 This was just, we did that in the past half an hour 16:31.000 --> 16:33.000 by accident without telling you. 16:33.000 --> 16:35.000 Yeah. 16:35.000 --> 16:39.000 So, yeah. 16:39.000 --> 16:43.000 Now then there's the thing with, 16:43.000 --> 16:47.000 yeah, basically this is how the contact discovery works. 16:47.000 --> 16:53.000 And this enables us to do the same protection stuff. 16:53.000 --> 16:56.000 Yeah, now I already said something about secure join. 16:56.000 --> 16:59.000 I want to clean up a bone out of the move, 16:59.000 --> 17:05.000 that basically email has so much metadata, 17:05.000 --> 17:10.000 and that it cannot secure because it has so much metadata. 17:10.000 --> 17:12.000 If you use a, like the devil chat, 17:12.000 --> 17:14.000 you have basically the only information 17:14.000 --> 17:18.000 which is left on the server if you look at an 17:18.000 --> 17:20.000 actually email, I'm fire. 17:20.000 --> 17:22.000 You have a sender, you have some recipients, 17:22.000 --> 17:24.000 you have the date, and you have the article 17:24.000 --> 17:26.280 of the BGP public key. 17:26.280 --> 17:29.280 That's all you will see, also, as an admin, 17:29.280 --> 17:31.840 for those encrypted males. 17:31.840 --> 17:36.520 And actually, we have some plans to even reduce that 17:36.520 --> 17:37.960 for the coming year. 17:37.960 --> 17:42.080 We don't like to promise things which are not there already. 17:42.080 --> 17:44.280 So we'll not go that much into detail. 17:44.280 --> 17:46.680 But yeah, compared to metrics, for example, 17:46.680 --> 17:49.080 where reactions are unencrypted. 17:49.080 --> 17:51.400 We're all the group membership information 17:51.400 --> 17:55.000 is unencrypted on a server and also 17:55.000 --> 17:58.440 persisted forever instead of being the leader 17:58.440 --> 18:02.680 as soon as you don't need to email any more. 18:02.680 --> 18:04.680 Yeah, that's a very different model here. 18:04.680 --> 18:10.520 And I think, yeah, email has a better reputation here 18:10.520 --> 18:11.720 for no reason, actually. 18:11.720 --> 18:13.320 You can do this much better. 18:16.200 --> 18:20.760 So basically what we propose is 18:20.760 --> 18:24.320 a kind of also for the whole email system to move away. 18:24.320 --> 18:26.760 I mean, a lot of the stuff will not be applicable 18:26.760 --> 18:28.320 to your mail service at home. 18:28.320 --> 18:29.880 You don't want to be open-signer, probably, 18:29.880 --> 18:30.920 or not all of you. 18:30.920 --> 18:32.520 Maybe some of you want to run a chat mail server, 18:32.520 --> 18:34.160 but that would be great. 18:34.160 --> 18:40.360 But yeah, you probably cannot require open PGP encryption. 18:40.360 --> 18:43.760 I mean, we basically don't allow users to send out emails 18:43.760 --> 18:46.280 to normal email addresses if they don't have the PGP key 18:46.280 --> 18:49.360 of them, so that in many ways, for email users, 18:49.360 --> 18:53.040 this is a bit contrary, counter-intuitive. 18:53.040 --> 18:55.680 So they have some constraints here 18:55.680 --> 19:01.480 to basically introduce cryptography-based interoperability 19:01.480 --> 19:07.120 instead of having just centralization-based trust. 19:07.120 --> 19:08.920 Yeah, that's right now. 19:08.920 --> 19:11.760 So we require open PGP and auto-crypt. 19:11.760 --> 19:14.360 We do not require that, so chat. 19:14.360 --> 19:17.240 We require that other mail servers use TKIM 19:17.240 --> 19:21.160 and strict ADKIM, strict DKIM alignment. 19:21.160 --> 19:25.400 But we do actually not require SPF or DMARC. 19:25.400 --> 19:28.640 And this is for basically preventing from forgery. 19:28.640 --> 19:32.480 We do have SPF and DMARC records in our auto-generated 19:32.480 --> 19:35.160 DNS records, of course. 19:35.160 --> 19:39.760 But we do not require others to use outdated standard 19:39.760 --> 19:43.840 specifically, and really try to follow the best practices here. 19:43.840 --> 19:46.680 And we require also, for example, that from HADOM 19:46.680 --> 19:50.880 that's just a login name, we require TLS encryption, 19:50.880 --> 19:54.000 so you cannot send a mail to chat my user 19:54.000 --> 19:55.840 without TLS encryption. 19:55.840 --> 19:58.080 That should not be possible anymore. 19:58.080 --> 20:01.200 And we can do that basically because we do this many 20:01.200 --> 20:03.200 for delta chat users. 20:03.200 --> 20:07.760 We do not, like we can move in that space 20:07.760 --> 20:12.400 because we can sacrifice them into a probability here 20:12.400 --> 20:18.080 for good practice, which is also not a solution for everyone, 20:18.080 --> 20:20.240 which is fine. 20:20.240 --> 20:24.080 So yeah, I will skip that. 20:24.080 --> 20:28.040 Basically, we have still have some suggestions 20:28.040 --> 20:31.720 for classic email admins, classic mail servers, 20:31.720 --> 20:34.360 how they can improve decentralized email, 20:34.360 --> 20:37.920 based on cryptography instead of centralization. 20:37.920 --> 20:41.600 Use standards like decim, and really enforce them, 20:41.600 --> 20:45.680 or do more than the minus one or plus one, 20:45.680 --> 20:47.640 as been the recommendation. 20:47.640 --> 20:50.080 Like that's a bad joke. 20:50.080 --> 20:53.480 That way, decim is in verb, anything. 20:53.480 --> 20:57.120 And yeah, instead of trusting blocklists, 20:57.120 --> 20:59.720 and IP blocklists and all of that stuff. 20:59.720 --> 21:02.520 And yeah, stop grailisting, really, please. 21:02.520 --> 21:04.720 My own, the mail provider where I have my main account 21:04.720 --> 21:07.480 on uses grailisting, and sometimes when there is someone 21:07.480 --> 21:11.320 from a new domain, and I, like, show them my QR code, 21:11.320 --> 21:13.840 it takes 10 minutes until it's complete. 21:13.840 --> 21:15.400 That's super annoying. 21:15.400 --> 21:18.600 And it doesn't really improve anything, 21:18.600 --> 21:22.600 if you could also trust cryptography instead. 21:22.600 --> 21:25.080 And then, generally, for your ask them decet apps, 21:25.080 --> 21:29.920 treat every open PGP encrypted email as ham, not spam, 21:29.920 --> 21:33.600 and treat every valid reply as ham. 21:33.600 --> 21:37.200 Because most Delta chat messages are valid replies, 21:37.200 --> 21:38.320 and IPGP encrypted. 21:38.320 --> 21:42.600 So those are things which are hopefully easy to do 21:42.600 --> 21:44.840 for others, and that would be great. 21:44.840 --> 21:46.320 Thanks. 21:46.320 --> 21:47.920 So thanks, those are the links. 21:47.920 --> 21:49.160 There are also some things. 21:49.160 --> 21:53.000 And yeah, also, maybe one last thing. 21:53.000 --> 21:56.680 We did a poll in our existing chatman operator group 21:56.680 --> 21:59.400 about how much effort it is to operate something like this. 21:59.400 --> 22:02.160 And yeah, nobody said that it's more than two hours 22:02.160 --> 22:05.360 a month, work, and most actually here. 22:05.360 --> 22:10.360 So it's quite easy to get running, if anyone's interested. 22:10.360 --> 22:11.480 Can I also talk later outside? 22:11.480 --> 22:12.320 Thanks. 22:12.320 --> 22:13.320 Thank you. 22:13.320 --> 22:14.320 Thank you. 22:19.320 --> 22:22.760 So Q&A, does anyone have questions or remarks? 22:29.400 --> 22:30.640 Does that join the server? 22:33.640 --> 22:35.200 The question was that there is any moderation 22:35.200 --> 22:38.400 of someone malicious John's to server. 22:38.400 --> 22:41.400 Not really, because they could also then 22:41.400 --> 22:44.200 unlike even if you find out somehow, 22:44.200 --> 22:46.920 you can maybe disable that account by adding a character 22:46.920 --> 22:49.400 to their password file. 22:49.400 --> 22:52.920 They can join with a new account. 22:52.920 --> 22:55.000 These things need to be approached differently, 22:55.000 --> 22:58.120 I think, than with censorship. 22:58.120 --> 23:00.440 But it's also discussion, we are, 23:00.440 --> 23:01.720 it's more nuanced, of course. 23:01.720 --> 23:03.520 Then this is the short answer basically. 23:05.760 --> 23:09.640 You said that I'll write you the script and I'll be 23:09.640 --> 23:13.560 on the same process so that if the server comes, 23:13.560 --> 23:16.280 this will be just that you will be able to do 23:16.280 --> 23:18.360 a new language that's right. 23:18.360 --> 23:22.360 So what happens is that happens so maliciously, 23:22.360 --> 23:26.440 how do you defend somebody's, what on the username, 23:26.440 --> 23:31.160 which other people recognize, do you hijack by somebody? 23:31.160 --> 23:38.520 Yeah, yeah, and to repeat it once, 23:38.520 --> 23:40.920 how can you, yeah, prevent someone 23:40.920 --> 23:44.120 squirting the email address of someone 23:44.120 --> 23:47.480 by logging in with the same username 23:47.480 --> 23:50.120 while you're after the older account was deleted. 23:50.120 --> 23:52.040 I mean, that's a little unlikely scenario, of course, 23:52.040 --> 23:55.000 because rarely user accounts are deleted. 23:55.000 --> 23:57.720 But basically it's prevented by, 23:57.720 --> 24:00.600 and the attacker does not have the private key 24:00.600 --> 24:03.640 of that person who was a customer's deleted. 24:03.640 --> 24:06.440 So it will show a big warning if, like, 24:06.440 --> 24:08.440 when their thing changes and, yeah, maybe, 24:08.440 --> 24:13.400 write out, like, with actually, like, changing the private key 24:13.400 --> 24:15.720 and messaging each other and you will see 24:15.720 --> 24:18.920 that we don't just show a small change set up message, 24:18.920 --> 24:21.640 as long as there was a green check mark, of course. 24:21.640 --> 24:24.840 But instead, actually, show a warning where people are told, 24:24.840 --> 24:28.040 how they can do it, what they can do about it, how they can verify 24:28.040 --> 24:30.040 via a second channel of the person, 24:30.040 --> 24:33.080 change the device, maybe, and stuff like that. 24:33.080 --> 24:37.960 So the problem is also solved by cryptocurrency, if you will. 24:42.760 --> 24:44.920 Oh, sorry. 24:44.920 --> 24:47.400 No, no, I mean, you're with the mask, sorry. 24:47.400 --> 24:49.400 Sorry. 24:49.400 --> 24:51.880 This may actually go back to the talk before, 24:52.440 --> 24:55.560 but I didn't see that this stuff. 24:55.560 --> 24:57.960 So, I'm so up to you, when you, patrons, 25:03.960 --> 25:06.000 Image... 25:18.200 --> 25:20.000 But the question was, a reference Sheila also work 25:20.000 --> 25:30.000 of classic email accounts in Delta Chat. And yes it does. Yeah. Yeah, back there. 25:32.000 --> 25:40.000 Yeah, let that you ask. You go to the settings. And then you click on add second device. 25:40.000 --> 25:46.000 And then you click on continue. And now I cancel this quickly because it shows a QR code. 25:47.000 --> 25:52.000 It shows a QR code, which you can then use to clone, which you can scan in the same local network of another device 25:53.000 --> 25:55.000 to clone your account to a second device. 25:56.000 --> 25:59.000 Yeah, it's the most usable thing we can could come up with. 25:59.000 --> 26:02.000 All right. We are a little bit at the end of the situation. There was one question. 26:02.000 --> 26:05.000 It's sometimes in the very end, but I think it's over right now. 26:05.000 --> 26:07.000 So maybe one very final question. 26:07.000 --> 26:09.000 I don't know who was first. 26:11.000 --> 26:12.000 Sorry. Sorry. 26:12.000 --> 26:19.000 So my question is, maybe I'm asking late, but how dependent is it that really on a group of G. 26:19.000 --> 26:24.000 Could you, if you could read model, it just ripped a group of G out and do something smaller? 26:24.000 --> 26:27.000 We do not use a group of G at all, do you mean open PGP? 26:27.000 --> 26:28.000 PGP, yeah. 26:28.000 --> 26:30.000 Oh, PGP. 26:30.000 --> 26:35.000 I think it's not really, it doesn't really make sense to rip out open PGP. 26:35.000 --> 26:38.000 It's the interoperable email standard. 26:38.000 --> 26:44.000 And yeah, just, we are also coming from that space also. 26:44.000 --> 26:47.000 I don't think that's what we would do. 26:47.000 --> 26:50.000 Also, we come back to your problem. 26:52.000 --> 26:54.000 Yeah, we have an implementation. 26:54.000 --> 26:59.000 That is actually also aiming for to implement post quantum later this year in a summit. 26:59.000 --> 27:01.000 We will talk about this. 27:01.000 --> 27:03.000 We don't need to fight here. 27:04.000 --> 27:06.000 And that's our PGP. 27:06.000 --> 27:08.000 It's a representation of PGP. 27:08.000 --> 27:12.000 And that is very well developed, audited, and so on. 27:12.000 --> 27:15.000 So there's currently no reason, like we don't have problems there. 27:15.000 --> 27:17.000 It's really working well. 27:17.000 --> 27:20.000 And there is, of course, always a possibility. 27:20.000 --> 27:22.000 If you look at this, we have to see a real time. 27:22.000 --> 27:25.000 The blog post that is pinned, I think, on the very verse. 27:25.000 --> 27:29.000 It uses a different encryption format. 27:29.000 --> 27:30.000 It's not PGP. 27:30.000 --> 27:34.000 The real time communication, I mentioned already, forward secrecy and so on. 27:34.000 --> 27:36.000 It's like, it's a different setup. 27:36.000 --> 27:41.000 You know, so it's not like we cannot do other things and so on. 27:41.000 --> 27:48.000 But as everything in cryptography, it really makes sense to think about it. 27:48.000 --> 27:54.000 You know, to have some process and not just jump to whatever kind of scheme you have in mind that might be great. 27:55.000 --> 28:00.000 And so we are kind of bound to using proven things. 28:00.000 --> 28:06.000 Agreed with several other players checked by many experts and so on. 28:06.000 --> 28:12.000 And rather move slowly, then fast and unable to decrypt. 28:13.000 --> 28:17.000 So, for many questions, I think we are at the end of the session. 28:17.000 --> 28:19.000 You can maybe take some stuff offline. 28:19.000 --> 28:21.000 Thank you very much for watching.