WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:14.600 Hello, happy to be here and we are boom for maintainers, Mayell and Ivan. 00:14.600 --> 00:21.040 This will not be a heavily technical talk, hope you, it's fun for you. 00:21.040 --> 00:28.040 The talk is called contaminated infrastructures and it will be a talk about contamination 00:28.040 --> 00:29.520 in different forms. 00:29.520 --> 00:34.940 It suggests how we can allow ideas, code and communities to issue each other for 00:34.940 --> 00:37.560 mutual benefits. 00:37.560 --> 00:42.080 How we approach and navigate the complexity that is within the project, how we communicate 00:42.080 --> 00:48.360 with the project, but also how we build the features and how we decide the roadmap. 00:48.360 --> 00:54.720 It is also, we hope an alternative path to big tech dominance visions and about how 00:54.720 --> 00:59.120 the Fedivers and the open social web as a whole can enable building things that are 00:59.120 --> 01:05.720 greater than the sum of their parts and also about why it is important for now. 01:05.720 --> 01:12.200 To talk about contamination, it is easier to start from the opposite, which is purity and 01:12.200 --> 01:14.680 we know that Silicon Valley builds for purity. 01:14.680 --> 01:20.640 They have this idea that they want to scale by eliminating variants, they change acquisition 01:20.640 --> 01:27.920 over partnership, they create all that garden over ecosystem and everything they manage 01:27.960 --> 01:32.720 the users and the data, they try to monetize over it. 01:32.720 --> 01:37.720 So in a sense, big tech tends to produce monocultures and we know that monocultures are fragile 01:37.720 --> 01:45.160 and when a platform identifies, users are nowhere to go with their relationships intact. 01:45.160 --> 01:49.040 When a company strategy shift and their communities discovered that their infrastructure 01:49.040 --> 01:55.240 was only rented and the landlord can change the rules or keep them out any time. 01:55.240 --> 02:00.440 We've seen this in agriculture and the same things is happening also in tech. 02:00.440 --> 02:08.040 We know by a corridor that big tech needs to ensure that the platform platform is the 02:08.040 --> 02:09.680 same path. 02:09.680 --> 02:14.880 But communities need viable alternatives, democracies need social infrastructure that are 02:14.880 --> 02:19.880 public common goods, which does not involve only the code and the software developers, but 02:19.920 --> 02:25.160 involves the maintainer, the translators, the user, the social researcher, the hosting. 02:25.160 --> 02:30.600 So a whole ecosystem that needs to be sustainable and needs to work according to common 02:30.600 --> 02:31.600 goods. 02:31.600 --> 02:39.600 Yeah, so we're trying to take a different path to that and build an infrastructure 02:39.600 --> 02:44.720 that evolves through encounters and through all the people and projects who get involved 02:44.720 --> 02:49.640 to build components that interact in combined ways that even we can't predict, organizations 02:49.680 --> 02:55.440 that reshape each other's roadmaps and resilience through entanglement rather than control. 02:55.440 --> 02:58.200 And we embrace complexity and plurality. 02:58.200 --> 03:01.520 We think that's an asset and not a problem to be hit in a way. 03:01.520 --> 03:05.880 And yes, that means a lot of people don't really understand what our project is. 03:05.880 --> 03:08.480 I hope it becomes a bit clearer today. 03:08.480 --> 03:13.680 At first glance, bonfire looks like yet another micrologging platform, but it tries to go 03:13.680 --> 03:15.160 far beyond that. 03:15.160 --> 03:20.240 You can, for example, share long form articles, like blogs, events, book reviews, videos, 03:20.240 --> 03:21.560 and much more. 03:21.560 --> 03:27.120 And unlike traditional social networks, where connections are just like friends or followers, 03:27.120 --> 03:32.560 bonfire goes beyond that binary and you can organize your contacts in circles, like family, 03:32.560 --> 03:36.120 a book club, foster them peers or any group. 03:36.120 --> 03:41.160 And when you post, you can choose which circles can see, interact or comment. 03:41.160 --> 03:46.960 Each circle also has its own feed and you can even share circle with itself, share circle 03:46.960 --> 03:50.520 itself publicly or with other circles. 03:50.520 --> 03:55.600 Bonfire puts communities in control of their experience. 03:55.600 --> 04:02.120 And that means also embracing consent in social networking, not just by supporting DMs or 04:02.120 --> 04:08.360 private groups, but by putting circles and boundaries. 04:08.360 --> 04:13.800 And so when you share posts, you can choose which circles can see it, but also comment 04:13.800 --> 04:15.400 or interact. 04:15.400 --> 04:21.600 And this enables more collaboration and trust, instead of looking at social networking as 04:21.600 --> 04:30.960 like a global town square, you can have groups and choose who you want to interact with. 04:30.960 --> 04:32.840 And bonfire is also modular. 04:32.840 --> 04:39.800 Every piece of bonfire is built as an extension that can interconnect with other extensions. 04:39.800 --> 04:45.960 There's no core app, and this means that features can be toggled on or off either at 04:45.960 --> 04:49.320 the instance level or by individual users. 04:49.320 --> 04:53.600 And you can easily add your own extensions that you build or fork a specific feature if 04:53.600 --> 04:58.200 you want to modify how it works without having to maintain an entire fork of a big 04:58.200 --> 05:02.320 monocultural code base. 05:02.320 --> 05:05.200 This means that communities can assemble their own apps. 05:05.200 --> 05:09.520 There's not one bonfire app, each community has their own flavor. 05:09.520 --> 05:13.800 They can enable what they need, and people can also build their own extensions as they're 05:13.800 --> 05:14.800 as saying. 05:14.800 --> 05:18.320 And this means bonfire becomes different things in different hands and adapts for each 05:18.320 --> 05:25.080 context. 05:25.080 --> 05:30.640 An activity pub is the main protocol that enables that for us. 05:30.680 --> 05:37.280 It enables having not just notes, short text, but also events, articles, audio, any type 05:37.280 --> 05:40.480 of activity and content. 05:40.480 --> 05:43.280 A whole vocabulary of social activities. 05:43.280 --> 05:47.320 And we're building for communities who don't just want to do one thing, but want all 05:47.320 --> 05:53.120 of those things or their own selection, their own version of what those things represent 05:53.120 --> 05:56.400 for them. 05:56.400 --> 06:06.200 So, yeah, we are building for communities that different needs, and where their essence 06:06.200 --> 06:08.000 came, became a meeting point. 06:08.000 --> 06:14.280 So, all the kind of activities events, notes, articles, book reviews, and whatever, can 06:14.280 --> 06:18.600 all throw to the same space without losing their shape. 06:18.600 --> 06:22.800 So, they all would be previewed as the activity that they are. 06:22.800 --> 06:28.680 The members doesn't need to join different kind of software for different kind of content, 06:28.680 --> 06:31.440 the Fediverse came to you. 06:31.440 --> 06:37.800 And as the community evolved, new extension, and new integration can come in the instance, 06:37.800 --> 06:41.800 today they need discussion tomorrow they will need events, that they after they may need 06:41.800 --> 06:46.240 collaborative documents and such. 06:46.240 --> 06:50.000 This means no more forcing the community to juggle between different apps, the bonfire 06:50.000 --> 06:56.880 space can bring content from peer tools like peer to borgos directly to their feeds. 06:56.880 --> 07:01.400 This means that doesn't mean that centralized everything into one platform, centralizing 07:01.400 --> 07:03.000 everything into a platform. 07:03.000 --> 07:08.960 Community members can still use the best tool for each job, like sharing a video or an event 07:08.960 --> 07:14.040 on Gansho, a 3D design on manyfold, but it's all seamlessly integrated so that people 07:14.040 --> 07:19.680 can follow watch interact directly from their social space. 07:20.360 --> 07:29.120 And we are working integrating client to server API, apps like Laughty, which is a community 07:29.120 --> 07:33.240 calendar, they can simply connect with bonfire. 07:33.240 --> 07:37.880 They don't need to build federation from scratch or common social features. 07:37.880 --> 07:44.520 Any app can post, comment, like and follow, bonfire takes care of the activity by planning 07:44.520 --> 07:52.120 and basically it's a breach for both protocol and for the app ecosystems. 07:52.120 --> 07:54.200 And so why are we here in this room today? 07:54.200 --> 07:58.720 After having given a talk at the social web room yesterday, we thought it was important 07:58.720 --> 08:05.720 to go beyond that community and see how we can bridge protocols, how we can have a network 08:05.720 --> 08:10.040 of networks rather than separate platforms. 08:10.040 --> 08:15.200 So to begin with, we already bridge with ATPOTO, thanks to the Bridgie Fred project, 08:15.200 --> 08:21.200 and that works pretty well, and would love to bridge with matrix, XMPP, or whatever else. 08:21.200 --> 08:27.720 On the ATP, for example, you can post on bonfire, people can follow you from ATPOTO, 08:27.720 --> 08:31.560 and your posts will appear in their feed, they can comment and they've come in superior 08:31.560 --> 08:33.200 in both places. 08:33.200 --> 08:36.600 That's open network effects and action across networks. 08:36.600 --> 08:42.320 We don't have to live in platform monocultures, open protocols, communes, secure messaging, 08:42.320 --> 08:48.080 private groups, contacts, the web spaces, and real community control to counter toxic spaces 08:48.080 --> 08:52.280 and surveillance with consentful trust and safety community with tools. 08:52.280 --> 08:57.880 This is how we can break, lock in, and build in networks we want. 08:57.880 --> 09:02.760 And the good news is that there is matrix and activity pub bridge, I don't know if the 09:02.760 --> 09:06.040 person is here today. 09:06.040 --> 09:11.640 We spoke yesterday, and they have a bridge ready. 09:11.640 --> 09:17.040 So it's called Kazarma, and it puts Federation Action by letting you seamlessly connect 09:17.040 --> 09:19.760 matrix and activity pub networks. 09:19.760 --> 09:25.520 Private messages and other content can flow between matrix users and dozens of other 09:25.520 --> 09:27.040 Federer's apps. 09:27.040 --> 09:33.320 At the moment, of course, it only works with non-incrypted messages, but we're currently 09:33.320 --> 09:36.600 working on implementing and to an encryption bonfire. 09:36.600 --> 09:40.680 There's another project called Emissary doing the same, so we're doing this with a shared 09:40.680 --> 09:49.440 spec with a focus on interoperability and standards working with a social web foundation. 09:49.440 --> 09:56.960 And so we'd love to find ways to interoperate with other networks as well. 09:56.960 --> 10:02.440 So we found this website called RVMLS yet from the matrix ecosystem. 10:02.440 --> 10:08.520 So there has been apparently a lot of work already in exploring and testing MLS for matrix. 10:08.520 --> 10:13.280 We don't know where that initiative will go, but it would be great if that can enable 10:13.280 --> 10:17.720 bridging. 10:17.720 --> 10:23.080 As we said at the beginning, Federation was beyond called an interoperability, but federer 10:23.080 --> 10:28.760 anything with communities, with organization and with collectives. 10:28.840 --> 10:34.760 This great, radically different ways of working, but also thinking in terms of sustainability, 10:34.760 --> 10:37.040 economic sustainability. 10:37.040 --> 10:41.080 And bonfire exists within this web of alliances, each of them bring in different kinds 10:41.080 --> 10:48.320 of expertise and each shaping what and how we build together. 10:48.320 --> 10:53.680 Those are some examples, so we are working with the cluster and metadata here. 10:54.600 --> 10:59.600 Both on hosting and on interoperating, they're a loud open source calendar, community 10:59.600 --> 11:00.960 calendar. 11:00.960 --> 11:08.640 And cop cloud, which created it's our Federation of Collective and Cooperative doing hosting 11:08.640 --> 11:15.480 and currently Abra, the tool that they created, is the preferred way of installing bonfire. 11:15.480 --> 11:21.840 And newsmask, which is our UK Foundation, and they developed native application that works 11:21.880 --> 11:25.240 both for iOS and for Android, specific for communities. 11:25.240 --> 11:31.680 So basically, we are creating, we are extending bonfire to provide the APIs so that 11:31.680 --> 11:35.560 an app build with the newsmask can plug into bonfires that can. 11:35.560 --> 11:38.960 So any communities can benefit from having bonfires that can. 11:38.960 --> 11:44.000 And this also implies that when a community reach out to newsmask for a specific features, 11:44.000 --> 11:48.800 we coordinate, we build the features on the bonfire backend and provide the APIs so that 11:48.800 --> 11:55.920 they can only have to implement on the front end on their native application. 11:55.920 --> 12:02.840 And just wrap the, what this ecology enable, we have currently two pilot, two project 12:02.840 --> 12:05.320 that we are starting working together. 12:05.320 --> 12:11.760 The first is Jacobine, the German edition, is a political magazine with more than 100,000 subscribers. 12:11.760 --> 12:16.960 And they wanted a community platform that wasn't as should be able, they could control, 12:16.960 --> 12:22.720 they could organize events, but also have discussion in pools, and totally control the platform. 12:22.720 --> 12:27.080 And tightly integrated with their publishing platform. 12:31.360 --> 12:31.920 So up to you. 12:34.480 --> 12:41.040 Yeah, another example is a small town in the Southwest England called Top Ness. 12:41.040 --> 12:47.760 And so they have a news website, a local journalism, and they also list local events, 12:47.760 --> 12:50.120 everything that's happening in the town on that website. 12:50.120 --> 12:54.840 So a lot of people go there, but for anything social, they go to Facebook groups. 12:54.840 --> 12:59.040 And a lot of people are still on Facebook only to participate in those groups. 12:59.040 --> 13:02.640 They would love to delete their account, but they're stuck. 13:02.640 --> 13:10.800 And so we're working together to launch an app with newsmask, a powered by bonfire on the web. 13:10.800 --> 13:16.000 And the co-op cloud and class in the method of hosting all together. 13:16.000 --> 13:18.600 And it will be a taught Ness app, which is the name of the town. 13:18.600 --> 13:22.720 So people are not signing up to the Fediver signing up to this weird thing. 13:22.720 --> 13:30.200 They just download the town's app, and they get access to news, events, and a community. 13:30.200 --> 13:33.280 So here's a little demo of how that works. 13:33.280 --> 13:37.640 So with the Louty community calendar, an event organizer can input an event. 13:40.800 --> 13:50.920 And then that appears on Louty as an event in their calendar, but also gets pushed to bonfire. 13:50.920 --> 13:55.200 Thanks to the activity pub client to server API event mentioned. 13:55.200 --> 14:00.080 So that sort of medically becomes federated and social, where it can be reshared. 14:00.080 --> 14:02.240 You can comment on it. 14:02.240 --> 14:10.480 And then it also appears in the mobile app. 14:10.480 --> 14:11.480 So that's it. 14:11.480 --> 14:14.760 We tried to keep it short to leave room for questions. 14:14.760 --> 14:21.520 If this resonates with you, please get involved, try out bonfire, fork it, create an extension. 14:21.520 --> 14:27.520 And talk to us if you want to form new alliances or bridges. 14:27.520 --> 14:32.800 So I'll just end with a quote from Annette Singh, as contamination changes world-making 14:32.800 --> 14:37.440 projects, mutual worlds, and new directions may emerge. 14:37.440 --> 14:40.040 Everyone carries a history of contamination. 14:40.040 --> 14:42.160 The reality is not an option. 14:42.160 --> 14:47.640 One value of keeping precarity in mind is that it makes us remember that changing with circumstances 14:47.640 --> 14:51.640 is the stuff of survival. 14:51.640 --> 14:52.640 Thank you. 14:52.640 --> 14:57.040 We also have a crowdfunding up if you're interested in supporting what we're doing. 14:57.040 --> 14:58.040 Thank you. 14:58.040 --> 14:59.040 Any questions? 14:59.040 --> 15:29.000 Yes, we put a lot of focus and time into interoperability. 15:29.000 --> 15:34.240 This approach of wanting to support any type of activity and content. 15:34.240 --> 15:38.800 It means, first of all, that we are able to display content coming from all those platforms 15:38.800 --> 15:40.680 and interact with it. 15:40.680 --> 15:47.240 And then that anything we create, we find a way to make that compatible with them in some 15:47.240 --> 15:48.240 cases. 15:48.240 --> 15:55.080 It means working with the standards community to like clarify or improve or build upon 15:55.080 --> 15:56.080 the standards. 15:56.080 --> 16:01.440 In some cases, it's talking directly with other implementers and coming up with an agreement. 16:01.440 --> 16:05.240 And in many cases, it's just using dirty work around. 16:05.240 --> 16:11.520 So yeah, there's a lot of like packaging things up to look like a micro blog, even though 16:11.520 --> 16:12.520 it's something else. 16:12.520 --> 16:15.120 Just so it can be previewed and messed it on, for example. 16:15.120 --> 16:20.240 But for now, the effort is more from other activity platform to bonfire, so that we 16:20.240 --> 16:25.040 ensure that if a book review comes to bonfire, we are able to display as a book review 16:25.120 --> 16:26.480 same for events and others. 16:26.480 --> 16:28.720 So it's more an effort on our side as the beginning. 16:34.720 --> 16:39.280 I'm assuming it's not too much effort to generate a new community of the interface, the way 16:39.280 --> 16:41.360 you have protagonists or protective bands. 16:41.360 --> 16:47.360 And so I think probably part of your growth idea is to be able to create bonfire with 16:47.360 --> 16:51.800 your faces for more different communities who want to use the platform. 16:51.800 --> 16:56.360 And I like this because it's like the discourse forms off there, something that I think 16:56.360 --> 17:00.240 allows us to look so all and runs down a lot when you want a platform. 17:00.240 --> 17:01.760 That doesn't interrupt around a goal. 17:01.760 --> 17:05.240 That's something that we all still kind of self-posed and it's self-community, right? 17:05.240 --> 17:06.240 But it doesn't bridge. 17:06.240 --> 17:10.360 It's not creating a content type that natively integrates the platform or activity 17:10.360 --> 17:11.360 up. 17:11.360 --> 17:15.480 I said, sort of what you're thinking is that you'll be able to create just more and more 17:15.480 --> 17:19.040 compatible interfaces or additional communities. 17:19.040 --> 17:23.400 And I'll just be familiar if you had a base and small customization to the end of the 17:23.400 --> 17:24.400 audience. 17:24.400 --> 17:25.400 Do you like that? 17:25.400 --> 17:26.400 Yes. 17:26.400 --> 17:27.400 I'm going to surprise the question. 17:27.400 --> 17:28.400 Okay. 17:28.400 --> 17:29.400 Okay. 17:29.400 --> 17:40.480 So you basically ask if our strategy for sustainability is to be able to grow by creating 17:40.480 --> 17:47.480 specific flavor of bonfire for specific verticals like neighborhood or publishers or 17:47.480 --> 17:48.480 others. 17:48.480 --> 17:49.480 Yeah. 17:49.480 --> 17:57.080 Actually, the best way to do that would be to partner like to do a lot of code design 17:57.080 --> 18:01.760 in session with like specific use cases that would be hyperlogal community or publisher 18:01.760 --> 18:02.760 etc. 18:02.760 --> 18:06.640 And find like the 90% that they need. 18:06.640 --> 18:12.320 And then yeah, later hopefully it would be like subterl customization on top of like 18:12.320 --> 18:14.240 branding for the specific community. 18:14.240 --> 18:18.280 Yeah. 18:18.280 --> 18:21.880 And you also ask specifically about discourse. 18:21.880 --> 18:27.080 Luckily there is an activity plug to plug in for discourse to make it better. 18:27.080 --> 18:29.120 I don't know how well that works. 18:29.120 --> 18:35.880 But there's also no BB which is similar form software that federates natively as well. 18:35.880 --> 18:37.360 So we want to interrupt right with those. 18:37.360 --> 19:07.000 So you're asking if circles are private things or you're asking if circles are private 19:07.000 --> 19:11.000 things just for the person who creates them or not. 19:11.000 --> 19:13.000 So by default they are private. 19:13.000 --> 19:18.320 The initial intention of circles is a way to sort of categorize your contacts for yourself 19:18.320 --> 19:24.160 so that when you create a post or a starter group you can decide who can see it, who can 19:24.160 --> 19:26.880 join it, who can even edit it. 19:26.880 --> 19:30.240 So it's a way to control sharing. 19:30.280 --> 19:36.360 But there's also a way and that's opt in where you can share a circle in order to, for 19:36.360 --> 19:40.920 example, if you have tried blue sky where they have starter packs. 19:40.920 --> 19:45.260 It's like a list of people that you recommend to follow, for example, here are all the 19:45.260 --> 19:49.280 post them speakers this year and you have a list and you can easily follow them out. 19:49.280 --> 19:53.280 So you can use a circle for that but that's if you choose to share it and it doesn't 19:53.280 --> 19:54.280 mean sharing it publicly. 19:54.280 --> 19:59.600 You can also use circles to say I'm going to share this circle with these other circles. 19:59.600 --> 20:06.600 We also had a demo of using a circle for setting boundaries but it didn't, it didn't 20:06.600 --> 20:12.600 play and probably we will not play right now as well. 20:12.600 --> 20:13.600 So, thanks very much. 20:13.600 --> 20:14.600 Thank you. 20:14.600 --> 20:15.600 Thank you. 20:15.600 --> 20:16.600 Thank you. 20:16.600 --> 20:18.600 Thank you. 20:18.600 --> 20:19.600 Thank you. 20:19.600 --> 20:20.600 Thank you. 20:20.600 --> 20:21.600 Thank you. 20:21.600 --> 20:22.600 Thank you. 20:22.600 --> 20:23.600 Thank you. 20:23.600 --> 20:24.600 Thank you. 20:24.600 --> 20:25.600 Thank you. 20:25.600 --> 20:26.600 Thank you. 20:26.600 --> 20:27.600 Thank you. 20:27.600 --> 20:28.600 Thank you. 20:28.600 --> 20:29.600 Thank you. 20:29.600 --> 20:30.600 Thank you. 20:30.600 --> 20:31.600 Thank you. 20:31.600 --> 20:32.600 Thank you. 20:32.600 --> 20:33.600 Thank you. 20:33.600 --> 20:51.600 Thank you. 20:51.600 --> 20:52.600 Yeah. 20:52.600 --> 20:56.600 So this is early days for that implementation. 20:56.600 --> 21:02.320 Currently the focus is on like the technical parts of interoperating and the encryption 21:02.320 --> 21:06.320 and key management so to make sure that's interoperable. 21:06.320 --> 21:15.320 So, we haven't done much work on UX yet but the spec allows for going beyond just messaging 21:15.320 --> 21:21.600 because it uses activity streams which is one part of activity pub where you can define 21:21.600 --> 21:26.320 activities and objects so you can have a post but you can also have an event so you can have 21:26.320 --> 21:30.320 lots of other JSON objects and a lot of metadata. 21:30.320 --> 21:38.320 So the spec allows for putting that into the encrypted blob basically so you're not just 21:38.320 --> 21:44.320 sending text messages, you're sending rich data so you can imagine the future like a can 21:44.320 --> 21:47.320 ban tool or something that is into an encrypted with your team. 21:47.320 --> 21:48.320 Okay. 21:48.320 --> 22:00.320 Hopefully, yeah. 22:00.320 --> 22:01.320 Yeah. 22:01.320 --> 22:10.320 And I wonder, you haven't mentioned you necessarily vary the words as you have faverm or 22:10.320 --> 22:17.320 faverm or plugin which kind of copies research gate and those to be tools for scientific 22:17.320 --> 22:23.320 communities like articles may be discussion about this maybe even peering rules and I wanted to ask you 22:23.320 --> 22:29.320 what are the plans and what challenges did you have while thinking about this. 22:30.320 --> 22:39.320 Yeah, the super interesting question because I think also there is maybe we didn't 22:39.320 --> 22:46.320 the great job to explain but on the open science network it was a bonfire initiative 22:46.320 --> 22:51.320 but rather a scientific collective that came to us saying we want to use bonfire for our 22:52.320 --> 22:58.320 scientific collective, but we would really love if on top of bonfire we could have the 22:58.320 --> 23:04.320 or city integration or we would be able to share directly paper but having proper metadata 23:04.320 --> 23:10.320 so not just link preview but also the research journal and other kind of metadata 23:10.320 --> 23:12.320 the status of the paper and so on. 23:12.320 --> 23:20.320 So we started prototyping these features with them and then we basically only share openly 23:20.320 --> 23:26.320 what we were doing and other scientists started to discuss with us and the idea is that 23:26.320 --> 23:32.320 specifically the open science flavor should be really driven by the scientific community 23:32.320 --> 23:39.320 driven not only in terms of the roadmap in terms of the sustainability in terms of the governance 23:39.320 --> 23:45.320 and everything like potentially also the future developments should be developed in collaboration 23:45.320 --> 23:50.320 or they should figure out because I think it's one of the most sensitive and important topic 23:50.320 --> 23:53.320 that we can do right now. 24:16.320 --> 24:23.320 So you're asking if people from outside bonfire instance where a circle is defined can also interact 24:23.320 --> 24:30.320 with that circle or like post to the circle address it now that's not the intention of circles 24:30.320 --> 24:36.320 some people are asking that so we might have to explore that but we think that groups are better 24:36.320 --> 24:42.320 answer to that need and so that's the next project that we're going to work on after 24:42.320 --> 24:48.320 and to an encryption here.