WEBVTT

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All right, so now we have

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get in light and they build a bare visualization tool, but they can design it.

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I feel there's a happy ending so I hope you can give us a happy ending.

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Yes, I hope so.

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Hello.

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So, as you can imagine, it's kind of, I imagine, classic story about experience,

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top and source developers building the tools I want, and how a skill designer

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clean their mess.

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So, I'm Alexis and this is Arthur.

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Arthur, sorry.

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And I'll start with a bit of context about defy light.

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So, defy light is about visualizing graphs.

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Sorry, hard work to say.

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Let's go back to 20.06.

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At this point, some researchers need to render network somehow, and there's some softwares

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that the load doing it, but they don't scale well, and they're hard to use.

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And there are very more about graph simulations, softwares.

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And at some point, a team of people wanting to map the parts of the web.

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So, they crawled spaces of the web.

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They retrieved the dataset, and they wanted to edit maps of the parts of the web.

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And the thing is, the previous softwares made it very, very hard to do.

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So, what they wanted to do basically is, first of all, you have to put the nodes at proper places.

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So, you want to use an algorithm that will create a layout for the nodes of the graph,

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so that nodes are closer in the image when they are closer on the web,

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which means either a short steps to go from one to the other website through iPod Textings,

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or common neighbors or this kind of things,

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and nodes that are afar on the image should be afar on the network.

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This is one of the first issues to solve.

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Then, they would like ideally this software to actually allow choosing how to map different graphic variables.

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So, nodes could have, for instance, a color,

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a color that could correspond to some ID that is present on this website, or to some language, or anything.

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And then, the size of the nodes is the criteria.

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So, they built JIFI.

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So, JIFI is an open source Java desktop application,

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and that does exactly what I said earlier.

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So, basically, they presented it at the time as a Photoshop for Graph,

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and it was really a software to create images of network datasets.

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First of all, one, the 2010s, the thing is HTML5, new JavaScript, new new capabilities in the web,

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so we actually want to get something better than just an image,

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and we develop within and around the JIFI community,

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a set of tools that allow us to actually run their graphs on web applications.

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So, basically, no, we can create the graph images in web pages.

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So, we even discussed in 2019 at first them,

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could we actually move JIFI to the web?

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And the thing is, during all those years, we actually did it multiple times.

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So, all those screenshots are different tools, developed by different people,

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but all more or less connected to the JIFI community.

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At some point, we were kind of friends and people knowing each other,

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spending times on kind of concurrent applications, developing the same things again and again,

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and we all sat around the table and said, okay,

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could JIFI maybe endorse one of those projects,

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so that we actually have an official version on the web for JIFI.

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So, 2022 comes and we build JIFI light.

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A bit more context here is that I think is important,

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especially for the happy ending.

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I am Alexis, I work at the firm named Westware,

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and we are lucky enough to actually have money and time.

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So, we actually could take the deflight project and port it.

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So, we spend a week, all of the few of us together,

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once twice, three times a year to actually make progress on JIFI light.

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Next week is tomorrow and I'm very happy.

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So, it's nice because we are in early 2025,

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we made the software we want, we are happy, we use it,

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it's as fast as we want it.

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There's some things that are not exactly as we want,

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like to buttons are not perfect.

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We have two bad icons and the free of us always clicked on the wrong one first,

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but we don't care, it's soft software.

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I mean, that's not what's going to stop other people to use it, right?

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And at some point, it is.

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So, we meet people we know,

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and we know they use JIFI for 15 years,

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but they don't know about JIFI light.

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So, this is a bad sign for us.

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Also, all those tiny things we lived with,

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they accumulate and we have no idea how to actually solve them

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because it's like a huge pile of little things,

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left by a thousand paper gets, you know.

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And we have no feedback,

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we actually have no idea how people use JIFI light.

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And it's not really as beautiful as it would like it to be.

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And we are a bit sad.

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But fortunately, we see on Master Dome,

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there's a designer who's looking for internships for his students,

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and we say, yeah, we have design needs, probably.

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And we meet with him and later on,

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we have a meeting with Artio,

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who comes join us, first work on some industrial projects we have,

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and then tackle the mess.

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Okay, can you hear me well?

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Yeah.

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So, Alexi, just showed you the story of visual network analysis,

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that I was student in design,

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and I wasn't a part of the scientific communities

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that uses graphs.

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So, there was a gap between my knowledge of design

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and the knowledge of visual network analysis

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that the team at Westward had.

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And we needed to start to redesign JIFI light

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to show them that gap.

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So, the team asked at Westward,

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they are three developers,

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asked me first to do some interview of them.

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At first, I was very surprised.

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I'm used to make a user interview,

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but not to interview my own developers.

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And I was a bit surprised,

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because I didn't really know

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how to use these results as a value UX-wise.

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And so, with a smaller research,

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I discovered that this practice has a name,

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and it's called a stakeholder interviews.

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It's a really good way to tackle a project of this size

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by defining the scope of the project.

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So, I wrote some questions that in a four-part interview,

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and interviewed each member of Westward,

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it was alone with me,

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taking notes as asked questions.

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So, I asked questions about themselves.

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That was interesting,

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because as they were talking about their motivation,

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and what's why the project was important for them,

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they were also doing me a quick course on visual network analysis,

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and on the needs JIFI light was built on.

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Afterwards, I asked them what was JIFI light,

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and who was using JIFI light and the response,

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they gave me is that they didn't know,

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and that it was very hard to like,

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to know this fact for them,

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they didn't have the tool to ask the community,

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and I asked why I was in this project,

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and why to help them verbalize the needs,

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they saw.

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After this interviews,

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I used a process of affinity mapping to sort the data,

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and I make the team of Westward vote for the,

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the way they wanted to improve the projects.

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They had like two key choice.

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They wanted first to improve JIFI light usability,

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rather than adding new features,

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because it was a question they asked themselves,

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was the problem of JIFI light due to lack of key features,

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and there was another thing that I talked about before,

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they didn't use people using software,

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and they wanted to know about it.

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So in a few weeks,

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two weeks, I made some quick users to this.

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We don't have a lot of resources to make this to this,

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so I was alone again,

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asking questions as I was taking note,

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but this time with people for like one hour and a half,

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so it was a long interviews,

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and it was like,

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there was a bit bias,

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but we need to accept this to move forward.

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What I can say is that being alone,

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taking note, which is not a very common in user interview,

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help me create silence in the interview

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that the users were using to talk more and talk more freely.

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So this is very interesting.

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So here is a quick example of questions I was asking them.

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So there was an interview and a test,

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each lasting 45 minutes,

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and here are the results we found,

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we found like two key insights with this study,

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first that navigation and menus were a big problem in JIFI,

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for example,

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the first thing user were doing when they opened JIFI,

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was using the last button in the menu,

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so it was a very direct place,

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and we found that after one.

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And as you can see,

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there was also a big asymmetry between the two menus.

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And the other insight was that a lot of people using JIFI,

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and not JIFI light,

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were lacking what JIFI calls the data laboratory,

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which is a big table of all the data on nods and edges,

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and say, use it to first know the graphs they're working on,

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and also to correct the data while they are exploring,

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which you are using,

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there are nods.

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And so that was a real thing that JIFI light,

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lacked.

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So with this insight,

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we started designing for three weeks.

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First things, as I said,

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I changed the menus of JIFI light.

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So we used a pattern that we found on JIFI light,

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to create like menus on over,

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because as you can see,

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there's a lot of indoor menus.

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And so they needed,

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user needed to access this sub menu really fast,

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and it worked well.

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And one thing I can stress enough is

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all sharing my wireframes,

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even if they were unfinished,

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was I have been really important to move forward designing.

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I'm a stiller student as you heard.

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I have, I had like the frameworks

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that to share my tool to the developers,

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I need to be at the state of mockups.

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But here, I wasn't an expert in,

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in other languages, etc.

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And I really needed the advice of Alexey

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and all the team at Westwear.

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While I was working on wireframes,

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and they have been really, really cool tools

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to create a discussion and to find a problematics.

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And really fast,

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these project help us finding solutions

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that were unexpected,

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and which are proper to JIFI light,

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which have a lot of menus.

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And so we need to,

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we need it to make them a quality,

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so it worked well.

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And I worked on a new visual identity

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and my goals was to make the graphs

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like the centerpiece of JIFI light.

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So tune down all the menus

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at the side for the graphs

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to express themselves.

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And after what we spent on a week

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to implement the designs,

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I was doing with the team in Westwear,

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like a small design system,

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inside of the files,

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while my design were implemented.

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And at this time again,

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collaborating with them at the same time

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was very important.

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For example, I used for my naming,

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a lot of sized label,

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like MD, Bouton, MD, etc.

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And for them,

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it's tight to break points

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because they are using a lot of bootstraps.

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And so there was confusion like this,

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that's working together

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to correct confusion.

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So working on an expert tools

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is kind of odd.

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And when the user interview

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are ended at some point,

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talking to my team and my developers,

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which are better experts

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about these subjects and me,

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helped a lot.

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And yeah, I want to emphasize

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that it starts with stakeholder interviews

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that within the,

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you while creating wireframes,

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it's been very, very important to discuss with my team

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to use them not as final project

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but as a way to exchange with them.

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Yeah, and it's going to be quick.

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We, oh, thank you.

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Yeah, we,

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we only invested,

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invested time around development time

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in this kind of urban software.

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It's a very first time

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in the Polybonoi and I from Westwell,

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invested money actually hiring someone

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to help us do what we count

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and we are very happy

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because the device is really awesome now

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and we have lots of good feedbacks

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and we see that now people use it

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as it was supposed to work.

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Things do work and so we invested more

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now we have a proper documentation

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with fixed communication issues

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and yeah,

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I think it's really worth investing

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in design when we do open source

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basically.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much.

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Oh.

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Nice.

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Yeah.

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You said you had a different name

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context to the developer and design

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and how did you solve that?

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Yeah.

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So yes,

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we had different conventions between

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the design system from Artur

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and Woodstrap that we used

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that is was our

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de facto design system.

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We solved it by forcing Artur

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to move to the Woodstrap naming convention.

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Yeah.

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Go ahead.

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So when you're working with expert users

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and you're using the software a lot,

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do you find that they keep referencing

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other solutions they used in the past

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for the same kinds of tasks?

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And how do you avoid just copying

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them and taking a good mix?

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Just before I replay

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it before I repeat.

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Are you asking to Artur

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while he's doing his user interviews

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or as modernary?

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A bit of a book, but particularly around

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the user interviews.

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Okay.

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So the question is

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did the expert users

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we've been discussing with

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all of them refer to other applications

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for the tasks they do within the device.

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And you want to answer?

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Yeah.

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Well, they refer to a lot to Jiffy

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and it's a core fact in this project.

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But Jiffy was

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it's like this.

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Well, it's all the image or no, it's like this.

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Yeah, it's like this.

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So,

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where I couldn't really take

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some inspiration of Jiffy

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which have already a lot of information

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of a lot.

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So, we found inspiration

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as well.

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And I think it's good to not copy past things

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but to discuss them

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and then inspired by some projects

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in itself, I think really good.

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And I think it's a matter of discussing

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with the team to find solutions that's worked.

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I don't want to go off topic,

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but I have the feeling that the

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do-grad visualization is a very tough,

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size, that's also connected to the visualization.

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And the ability to explain a complex data

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with graphs.

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And what I found frustrating

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is sometimes students or researchers

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have a dataset and whatever they do,

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they do self-figure,

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they believe that they self-figure

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as a meaning, but it doesn't.

21:53.220 --> 21:54.220
Yeah.

21:54.220 --> 21:57.220
And you are also the best entry point to teach

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about these.

21:59.220 --> 22:02.220
Because sometimes they are making a complex graph

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that looks at a lot of wonderful,

22:05.220 --> 22:08.220
but they perhaps are table

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or we'll be even better to explain that.

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And then believe that you are the only one

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more entitled to explain

22:14.220 --> 22:16.220
and why do you use them when to don't?

22:16.220 --> 22:17.220
Okay.

22:17.220 --> 22:20.220
So, you were stating that

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one of the big issues with Jiffy

22:23.220 --> 22:26.220
and Jiffy Light is that people produce big images

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and they think they see insights in them

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that actually don't exist.

22:31.220 --> 22:34.220
And I think you're right.

22:34.220 --> 22:36.220
If you want to know more about this

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this read about visual network and analysis

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that actually says exactly what people read

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in these images, that's a right image.

22:46.220 --> 22:49.220
That's kind of a sub-field of graph visualization.

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And I think there's the worst people

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to address this issue.

22:52.220 --> 22:54.220
Because you produce the software.

22:54.220 --> 22:57.220
I think users should help themselves

22:57.220 --> 23:02.220
try to find how to actually get

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active-able insights,

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good signals in their images

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and try to eliminate

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what signals that are actually pure bias basically.

23:18.220 --> 23:22.220
That I still think that Jiffy Light

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has a software, have a key role, not a key role.

23:27.220 --> 23:29.220
But I have a role in all

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that are at least analyzed

23:32.220 --> 23:34.220
afterwards.

23:34.220 --> 23:36.220
Because, for example, in Jiffy Light

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to space, not, it takes a little time

23:40.220 --> 23:43.220
and it's not an algorithm that's a tadar.

23:43.220 --> 23:47.220
You learn the algorithm and you are seeing

23:47.220 --> 23:50.220
not moving slowly.

23:50.220 --> 23:54.220
And this fact implies that

23:54.220 --> 23:56.220
there's not a good image.

23:56.220 --> 23:59.220
You need to stop the algorithm at some point.

23:59.220 --> 24:03.220
But there's not a good state of the graph.

24:03.220 --> 24:06.220
There's not a true answer.

24:06.220 --> 24:08.220
And I think it's important.

24:08.220 --> 24:11.220
And in Jiffy Light, like,

24:11.220 --> 24:14.220
shaped this perception.

24:14.220 --> 24:17.220
Yes?

24:18.220 --> 24:22.220
I'm not sure how much control you have over Jiffy

24:22.220 --> 24:23.220
Jiffy.

24:23.220 --> 24:26.220
But are you flying to try to implement

24:26.220 --> 24:30.220
some of the good patterns and ideas

24:30.220 --> 24:33.220
from the Jiffy Light redesign

24:33.220 --> 24:35.220
into the Jiffy desktop?

24:35.220 --> 24:37.220
That's a very good question.

24:37.220 --> 24:41.220
So the question is will

24:41.220 --> 24:43.220
there are things in Jiffy Light

24:43.220 --> 24:45.220
I don't exist in Jiffy yet

24:45.220 --> 24:48.220
and will this thing be plotted in the future?

24:48.220 --> 24:49.220
Right.

24:49.220 --> 24:50.220
It's not about control.

24:50.220 --> 24:53.220
We don't have any control about what happens in Jiffy,

24:53.220 --> 24:56.220
but we have common events

24:56.220 --> 24:58.220
where we meet all together and we discuss both

24:58.220 --> 24:59.220
roadmap, basically.

24:59.220 --> 25:01.220
And right now Jiffy is all about

25:01.220 --> 25:04.220
migrating to the new rendering and jinn

25:04.220 --> 25:08.220
and hopefully release a V1 at some point.

25:08.220 --> 25:11.220
And there are some ideas from Jiffy Light

25:11.220 --> 25:13.220
that they want to take already,

25:13.220 --> 25:15.220
like captions.

25:15.220 --> 25:18.220
But it's not actually planned yet.

25:18.220 --> 25:19.220
The TS at some point,

25:19.220 --> 25:21.220
they would like to implement

25:21.220 --> 25:23.220
the good things from Jiffy Light.

25:27.220 --> 25:29.220
Okay. Sorry.

25:29.220 --> 25:31.220
Thank you very much.