WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.440 All right, folks, thank you for waiting what we had a little bit of a longer break. 00:12.440 --> 00:20.200 With this next talk from vibrant to silent, the names of pattern of communities are seeing 00:20.200 --> 00:26.240 these days that activity can look really great on paper, issues, PRs, downloads, but then 00:26.240 --> 00:28.560 the community voice feels quieter. 00:28.560 --> 00:32.720 There's fewer discussions, fewer volunteers, and less visible ownership. 00:32.720 --> 00:36.240 So please welcome Prithi Raj, who's going to explore what might be driving the shift and 00:36.240 --> 00:41.400 what community leaders can do to re-engage people in all the different ways. 00:41.400 --> 00:49.200 Good afternoon, everyone, where you want me to come to my talk. 00:49.200 --> 00:54.440 Usually what happens is if I'm giving a talk at a conference on a Sunday afternoon, 00:54.440 --> 01:02.800 I'll see hardly two people attend that talk, but glad so many people are joining in. 01:02.800 --> 01:07.640 I won't treat this as a talk, it's more of a rant to be honest. 01:07.640 --> 01:16.920 I've been a community manager for six years now, and I've seen quite a bit of a transition. 01:16.920 --> 01:22.520 Let's start with this, this happened a couple of days ago, and this is what is going on 01:22.520 --> 01:26.400 at most of the companies, AWS as an example. 01:26.400 --> 01:33.000 They laid off their community team, their community builders program manager, the head 01:33.000 --> 01:40.000 of AWS community, and this speaks volumes of where we are headed in terms of, you know, 01:40.000 --> 01:47.880 prioritizing community community initiatives, how most organizations are seeing communities 01:47.880 --> 01:51.880 or how they're approaching the community mindset. 01:51.880 --> 01:56.800 And if I have to take a couple of more examples, I mean, these are examples from different 01:56.800 --> 02:04.520 ecosystems altogether, but how many of you are using ingress, engineers in your infrastructure 02:04.520 --> 02:06.520 or ecosystems? 02:06.520 --> 02:12.400 I see a few hands, but I'm sure most of you might be aware, and then people were asked to 02:12.400 --> 02:19.960 move to get way API because in fact, the sick could not maintain ingress, engineers because 02:19.960 --> 02:25.320 of lack of contributors, of lack of, maintain a shape, and similarly, when it came to 02:25.320 --> 02:31.480 contributing to docs, there was this program called Google Season of Docs, I'm sure a few 02:31.480 --> 02:34.360 of you might be aware of it. 02:34.360 --> 02:39.960 It lasted for five years, got in some doc contributions, but again, installed around a couple 02:39.960 --> 02:45.480 of years ago, it concluded there was not amplitude budget, Google was cutting down on some 02:45.560 --> 02:47.360 of its initiatives. 02:47.360 --> 02:51.760 I was just entering the campus and someone had pasted a lot of stickers with said 02:51.760 --> 02:53.400 fun Google. 02:53.400 --> 03:00.360 So, I mean, I can see there's a sense of change in the community or how they have 03:00.360 --> 03:06.480 a mindset towards companies or companies, how they are taking community initiatives forward 03:06.480 --> 03:10.680 with this quick intro about myself, my name is Pichiraj, I'm a CNCF ambassador. 03:10.680 --> 03:15.800 This has been my journey, I usually run platform engineering community meetups around 03:15.800 --> 03:19.760 Bangalore and other than that, some community initiatives. 03:19.760 --> 03:25.360 I've mostly been involved with the CNCF, I know that a lot of folks who are attending 03:25.360 --> 03:30.560 this conference are not well-versed with CNCF, but just a show of hands, how many of you 03:30.560 --> 03:34.440 are worst with CNCF or CNCF projects. 03:34.440 --> 03:40.080 A few folks, because we'll be discussing the state of CNCF projects in terms of open-source 03:40.160 --> 03:45.160 project health, so just a quick intro about myself. 03:45.160 --> 03:50.280 Usually this is the slide I use, what's on the agenda, we will find out, but today I have 03:50.280 --> 03:56.040 built some what an agenda for all of us, what we'll talk about, we'll define community 03:56.040 --> 04:02.840 in this talk or what I want to suggest in terms of what's community and how community 04:02.840 --> 04:08.040 has developed or what's the future for the community looking like. 04:08.040 --> 04:12.760 And of course, we'll talk about symptoms, what's happening, how project health have improved 04:12.760 --> 04:18.360 or gone down, we'll look at some examples, root causes and can we bring back the community 04:18.360 --> 04:20.560 voice. 04:20.560 --> 04:27.200 So before I start, let me quote one of these quotes from 1600s, which is still valid, 04:27.200 --> 04:32.440 I believe each and every member present here, drives the community community is like a 04:32.440 --> 04:36.880 ship and you need to take the community forward. 04:36.960 --> 04:44.040 When I say things have gone silent or from vibrant community, we have moved towards silence. 04:44.040 --> 04:49.280 I believe one of the most important things that have happened is we are seeing that we are 04:49.280 --> 04:54.320 growing in terms of numbers, there are a lot of contributors coming in, GitHub comes in with 04:54.320 --> 05:00.800 an October, CNCF comes in with an annual survey, many Azure comes in with a survey, there 05:00.800 --> 05:08.240 are many community events happening, QCorn is growing in terms of numbers, members. 05:08.240 --> 05:16.560 But I feel that the main community, which is the maintainers, the contributors and the users, 05:16.560 --> 05:23.040 there's a burnout, I have noticed that the amount of contributors that were part of one 05:23.040 --> 05:28.280 project they have reduced, there's one particular company that is sponsoring a project or 05:28.280 --> 05:34.400 that is running ship for a project, maintainer burnout is a very important aspect today, 05:34.400 --> 05:40.400 maintainers are getting burned out, maintainers are asked to focus more on end user products 05:40.400 --> 05:47.200 projects and that's where I feel that the shift from the community mindset has changed and 05:47.200 --> 05:52.720 we have moved towards more of a proprietary mindset and community has become a bi-product 05:52.720 --> 05:53.720 of it. 05:53.720 --> 06:00.120 And that's how I define community, I think it's a definition which is open to acceptance 06:00.120 --> 06:05.080 by each and every person in the community, I feel that a community is built of three layers, 06:05.080 --> 06:10.760 of course the layer number one is users, people are consuming the projects, layer number 06:10.760 --> 06:15.320 to the contributors who are helping build the project and of course the maintainers who 06:15.320 --> 06:21.480 are helping maintain the project, helping build the road maps, take care of security, 06:21.480 --> 06:29.400 release management and these three aspects in itself have problems at individual levels, 06:29.400 --> 06:34.680 the real challenge of course today is the change in business dynamics, there's a lack 06:34.680 --> 06:40.040 of community mindset, a lot of companies which started off with the community team have shifted, 06:40.040 --> 06:46.760 I'll give you an example of myself, I was working for a company where I had my manager 06:46.760 --> 06:51.320 who was the head of community and suddenly one day the company decided that we don't 06:51.320 --> 06:57.800 want to have a community team anymore, during lunch we discussed that we'll have a couple 06:57.800 --> 07:03.880 of sprints, we'll talk about a lot of things around community and by evening my manager 07:03.880 --> 07:11.400 was fired, so that's how the community mindset is shifting, there's a misinterpretation 07:11.400 --> 07:15.480 of community people believe that there's a community, of course there's a community for each 07:15.480 --> 07:22.600 and every tool but people believe that you can build community around anything or everything 07:22.600 --> 07:28.840 and that's where people are focused more on building community on end user tools rather than 07:28.840 --> 07:33.800 building, having the community or the open source mindset and of course there are too many events, 07:33.800 --> 07:41.080 too many channels, I saw there are it's just February and there are already 1500 conferences 07:41.160 --> 07:46.920 scheduled for this year and we are just in February, so of course there are a lot of events 07:46.920 --> 07:53.000 that are happening but are we talking community are we talking open source, I still feel that 07:53.000 --> 07:58.040 the lines are actually blurred in today's ecosystem, so we'll of course discuss three problems, 07:58.040 --> 08:06.040 maintain a contributor and user problems, so the idea today is that most of the open source projects 08:06.040 --> 08:11.960 are many critical versus projects depend on a very small maintainer set, there are four maintainers 08:11.960 --> 08:17.400 who are maintaining the project, they are the contributors itself, the users, raise some fixes, 08:18.280 --> 08:25.000 enhancements or a PR or an issue here and there but there's no major contribution that's happening, 08:25.720 --> 08:29.640 of course maintainer burnout is a spoke about it's one of the major reasons, 08:30.360 --> 08:35.640 maintainers are asked to focus on security, we are moving towards more secure software 08:35.640 --> 08:42.680 and CVs dependencies that adds as a major risk and of course once there's a maintainer burnout 08:42.680 --> 08:49.320 the project suffers, similarly there's a contributor problem, I have seen a lot of folks joining 08:49.320 --> 08:55.400 the community, they want to contribute to projects but they are not clear on how they can 08:55.400 --> 09:00.360 actually gain from it, they don't want to stick to a single project, many people are job seekers, 09:00.360 --> 09:05.320 they want to contribute to a project in terms of mentorship or getting a job eventually from 09:05.320 --> 09:12.280 the sponsor company but that that doesn't stick for long and contributors move away from projects 09:12.280 --> 09:16.840 and of course there's a mentorship problem as well, I see there are a lot of mentorship projects 09:16.840 --> 09:24.680 which have mentors but mentors don't eventually have time to help these mentees become 09:24.680 --> 09:28.440 core contributors to the project or there's an incentive shift of course, 09:28.440 --> 09:32.840 where from a contribution standpoint folks are moved to a capture, 09:32.840 --> 09:36.920 mine share rather than actually focusing on good contributions, 09:38.120 --> 09:43.880 so these are examples of two CNCF projects and there are many CNCF projects out there, 09:43.880 --> 09:51.080 I have just taken two examples, the health is adhered, health is excellent but you see the red 09:51.080 --> 09:57.160 flags there, the contributor dependency and the organization dependency, there's one contributor 09:58.200 --> 10:04.040 which accounts for 51 plus percent of contributions for contour and for Falco we have four 10:04.040 --> 10:09.720 contributors and just one organization that is doing most of the contributions and if you see most 10:09.720 --> 10:18.360 of the OSS projects in the CNCF landscape CD foundation or other landscapes, it's barely five 10:18.440 --> 10:24.360 to six contributors who are running the project, it's one or at max two organizations that 10:24.360 --> 10:29.080 account for most of the contributions to the project and that's not healthy because if one 10:29.080 --> 10:34.680 organization falls or a few contributors are a couple of maintainers decide to not contribute to 10:34.680 --> 10:41.720 the project, the project falls and the user problem of course end users want to consume the project, 10:41.720 --> 10:47.480 they are not ready to contribute back, communities are not getting any automation, they don't want 10:47.560 --> 10:54.280 to support the users, many companies have stopped investing in open source projects and it's again 10:54.280 --> 11:00.920 become hard to enter for many companies as well, as I spoke about 1500 conferences, schedule already, 11:00.920 --> 11:06.200 there's an event inflation, I mean I think for them would be one opportunity that I got to present 11:06.200 --> 11:12.440 this land but many conferences might not even accept this talk because they feel it's a it's a violation 11:12.520 --> 11:20.920 but of course we are talking about more tools, more contributions but has it reflected in reality 11:22.280 --> 11:26.760 this is a metric that I have generated according to the conferences that I have attended 11:26.760 --> 11:30.680 the people that we have come across or the people we met at 11:31.640 --> 11:37.320 conference boots hardly 1% of the conference attendees eventually contribute back to the project, 11:37.320 --> 11:42.200 they'll come to your boots, they'll get their swag, they'll get their stickers but never come back 11:42.200 --> 11:48.920 to contribute, the attendance to contribute contribution conversion rate has been minimal until now 11:51.240 --> 11:57.800 so this sponsors sustainability challenges the issue like our company is creating this challenge 11:57.800 --> 12:02.920 as I spoke about the end users don't want to contribute back to the project, there is an open source 12:02.920 --> 12:09.640 mismatch, they believe that the open source model should make them money but if it does not or if 12:09.640 --> 12:14.440 they are not moving towards that kind of a direction they pull the plug and decide to not 12:14.440 --> 12:19.320 contribute to the project, there are a lot of folks who don't have a community team or an open source 12:19.320 --> 12:27.560 program office and that's where there's a mindset mismatch so how companies control projects 12:27.560 --> 12:36.280 this is true to many projects that are out there they ensure that the the sponsor company is 12:36.280 --> 12:41.960 having control over the open source project even if you see that it's open source it's hosted 12:41.960 --> 12:51.640 by the CNCF the image out there the maintainers who the of course I being paid by these companies 12:51.640 --> 12:57.640 are forced to drive road map according to them there's an unclear governance or maintainer paths 12:58.840 --> 13:03.000 not a lot of contributions are allowed even if an end user wants to contribute something which 13:03.080 --> 13:09.080 is beneficial for the community there are blockers or these issues don't get mitigated or 13:09.080 --> 13:15.800 PRs are not merged within particular timelines and features are prioritized according to 13:17.080 --> 13:23.000 the companies the sponsor company is benefit or the product strategy and that I believe is the 13:23.000 --> 13:30.040 largest threat flag today it has I mean cease to exist for the longest of the time but that's 13:30.120 --> 13:34.040 that I believe is the biggest threat flag that an open source project can have and that's where 13:34.040 --> 13:40.200 democratizing is essential the stakeholders need to be defined maintainers as soon as they start 13:40.200 --> 13:44.440 their project or believe that there can be possible threats they need to ensure that multiple 13:45.720 --> 13:49.960 maintainers from different companies exist they are building the contribute a pool and they are 13:49.960 --> 13:55.880 ensuring that your projects have the right stakeholders so that even if there's pressure from 13:55.960 --> 14:02.360 companies there's a possible stoppage of sponsorship towards the project the project stays on 14:04.040 --> 14:11.800 here's my personal experience I I don't want to read out a lot of it but in recent times 14:11.800 --> 14:18.440 I believe that there's been an empathy that's missing in in the community or from community events 14:18.440 --> 14:24.680 itself whenever I go towards organizing a community event or reach out to folks on ensuring that 14:24.680 --> 14:31.080 a community event sustains does well they talk about sponsorship but they don't talk about the 14:31.080 --> 14:38.360 the contributor value or the output a contributor street the community more as for their personal 14:38.360 --> 14:43.720 PR they want to showcase different images on LinkedIn or Slack that we are creating value but 14:43.720 --> 14:51.080 the real value creation I feel has been diminished and community initiatives are not growing I saw 14:51.080 --> 14:57.320 one of these mentorship programs their stipend has not grown in the last 6 years I mean if I 14:57.320 --> 15:05.640 talk about India the inflation is 7% and for 2% I mean should have grown in 6 years but the 15:05.640 --> 15:11.400 stipend has not grown even 1% in the last 6 years and that doesn't incentivize mentees and of 15:11.400 --> 15:16.680 course there's a lot of reliance on AI most of the folks out there are using AI to complete their 15:16.760 --> 15:22.920 mentorship programs or contribute code where the code quality as you know suffers of course 15:24.920 --> 15:29.880 so I'll take an example this is a community that I worked for for five years it's the chaos 15:29.880 --> 15:36.360 engineering community today this Slack does not exist at one point in time it had 10,000 for 15:36.360 --> 15:44.920 and 10,000 plus members and I'll I'll cite some instances or reasons why it happened of course 15:44.920 --> 15:49.240 these were the three community events that were happening all three of them are shut I think 15:49.960 --> 15:55.640 somewhere converted to proprietary or enterprise native events but what really happened 15:56.280 --> 16:01.400 of course the community Slack was disbanded there was a white paper that was being worked on or 16:01.400 --> 16:07.000 research paper that was essential for the community to grow for people to understand what's 16:07.000 --> 16:11.720 about chaos engineering and this is more from an open source community perspective that I'm speaking 16:11.720 --> 16:17.800 of most prominent projects suffered we'll we'll see a couple of graphs as well there were no 16:17.800 --> 16:23.000 mentorship programs or even if there are mentorship programs hardly the mentors have found time to 16:24.040 --> 16:29.640 contribute or help mentees grow of course the platforms to advocate reduced today if I have to 16:29.640 --> 16:34.760 talk about prominent conferences even the maintainer track talks are not getting accepted and that's 16:35.480 --> 16:40.760 kind of sad for the community and of course community events as I spoke about stall 16:40.760 --> 16:46.120 contributor retention has diminished and you barely see the folks who were contributing 16:46.120 --> 16:51.400 and they were stalwarts like Disney HBO they are not contributing to the community anymore 16:52.200 --> 16:57.080 so you see this is one of the most popular chaos engineering projects and this is how 16:57.080 --> 17:03.560 contributions diminished over time this is one of the graphs of commits and how commits have 17:03.560 --> 17:10.840 lowered it it was in its prime around 2021 when I was contributing to the community itself 17:10.840 --> 17:16.600 but this is what has happened and this is the same with chaos toolkit the project is not growing 17:16.600 --> 17:24.200 anymore there are no contributions post-training 24 and this speaks volumes of how many ecosystems 17:24.200 --> 17:29.640 many community is suffering we might not see it out there because there are flashy projects as well 17:29.720 --> 17:35.720 which are important to end users which are important to sell and they are of course getting much 17:35.720 --> 17:42.440 of the attention much of the contributions but many projects and even a project like flux I'm sure 17:42.440 --> 17:49.480 some of you might be aware of flux you saw the example early I talked about health as soon as 17:49.480 --> 17:55.560 we've worked stopped there was a concern on how flux moves forward in spite of being a CNC 17:55.640 --> 18:01.800 graduated project and a few of you might know what CNC of graduation means and this is what we 18:01.800 --> 18:07.800 see in terms of commits of course it peaked around 2021 that was the peak for a lot of open 18:07.800 --> 18:13.240 source projects people were sitting at home contributing left and right but you see the red mark 18:13.240 --> 18:20.680 is where the company closed down and then again the yellow mark speaks about how commits are again 18:20.760 --> 18:27.000 getting reduced in spite of some other companies trying to invest in the project or hiring the 18:27.000 --> 18:33.080 maintainers to to maintain the project itself and there are multiple stories of projects getting 18:33.080 --> 18:38.120 archive there are a lot of stats that people talk about projects that came into the particular 18:38.120 --> 18:45.080 organization or people talk about projects that graduated but you see these are the projects that 18:45.160 --> 18:51.480 got archived and how their contributions started at immediately like at one point in time they were 18:51.480 --> 18:57.960 growing like anything and immediately once the maintainership stopped there was no one else to take 18:57.960 --> 19:03.960 over the project these are just couple of examples there are many examples out there in the last 19:03.960 --> 19:08.760 two and half years 22 projects where archive which basically means there was no one to maintain 19:09.400 --> 19:16.440 the project health was almost zero or close to zero so what does the future look like I hope I 19:16.440 --> 19:24.440 have a minute or two with me and according to me if we move at the same pace of course contributions 19:24.440 --> 19:31.960 will be centered around certain projects your VLLMs, Olamah, Kubernetes and other projects which 19:32.040 --> 19:38.440 of course sub-serve enterprise interest but many budding projects might not make it there are so 19:38.440 --> 19:44.280 many projects out there that are looking for contributors, maintainers and I believe that it's 19:44.280 --> 19:50.760 it's on us to help them grow and of course commercial events might define what the OSS community 19:50.760 --> 19:57.320 looks like but not the real events of course I believe in sticking to the basics this is these are 19:57.400 --> 20:03.800 some steps that can just kick start this initiative collaborating with other open source projects 20:03.800 --> 20:09.800 ensuring that there is enough contributors to the participation having a community champion program 20:09.800 --> 20:15.000 if you run an open source community so that you keep ensuring that there are people who want to 20:15.000 --> 20:21.240 get involved in technical or non-technical contributions and try to run more community centric events 20:21.240 --> 20:27.880 of course I have just structured this at a community level there are various steps that can be taken 20:28.600 --> 20:33.320 of course content is king putting it out there continuously that there's a community and this is what 20:33.320 --> 20:40.040 is being done it can be releases it can be talking about tooling integrations organizing meetups 20:40.040 --> 20:45.880 on the larger ecosystem or the overall outreach and ensuring that you analyze your matrix 20:46.200 --> 20:54.040 regularly and these are some points this is completely personal or opinionated but yeah this is what 20:54.040 --> 20:59.720 you can do to bring back your voice I cannot read it through because we are almost in time but yeah 20:59.720 --> 21:06.120 the list is non exhaustive and I hope we can have larger discussions on ensuring that the voice 21:06.120 --> 21:13.640 stays and the community keeps growing so this is the last coat I have this is not by someone 21:13.640 --> 21:20.760 from 1600s but AI generated but thank you so much for participating and I appreciate the large 21:20.760 --> 21:26.680 audience here on a Sunday afternoon when people mostly want to grab lunch thank you so much for joining 21:26.680 --> 21:35.640 in I appreciate it we have we have a few minutes for questions any questions 21:35.960 --> 21:42.200 just raise your hand I will come to you with the mic okay we have a feel like Oprah 21:48.280 --> 21:55.080 thank you very nice talk do you see this is an overall trend across the entire open source 21:55.080 --> 22:00.360 ecosystem that projects are dying out or are there just some projects dying while new ones are 22:00.360 --> 22:08.360 also being born I agree to this fact that some projects are dying and some projects are again 22:08.360 --> 22:13.720 I mean you see a lot of projects coming in the ecosystem as I spoke about that contributors are 22:13.720 --> 22:22.360 growing but I also sense that the projects that are dying are higher in number in terms of quality 22:22.760 --> 22:28.760 like there are quality projects which are dying but the new projects that are coming in some projects 22:28.840 --> 22:34.600 whole quality but many of them might not hold the quality in comparison to the projects that 22:34.600 --> 22:42.360 are getting killed or not being maintained anymore and why I speak highly of it is because of course 22:42.360 --> 22:49.000 I feel that that's the chain or that's the life cycle that opensource in itself has that new 22:49.000 --> 22:55.720 projects will come in many projects will phase out but why I share this concern is because I see 22:55.800 --> 23:02.280 that this is coming in as a repeated pattern and once things become a pattern it it doesn't take 23:02.280 --> 23:09.400 time to you know just inject into the ecosystem so that's why I share this concern 23:09.480 --> 23:27.000 any other questions anyone oh oh you take how do you suggest a sponsor companies and users 23:27.560 --> 23:34.040 help this problem what can they do if they're not contributing I think it has to be a mindset 23:34.120 --> 23:40.760 shift because mostly companies are looking at an ROI how many leads are we generating how many 23:40.760 --> 23:46.680 people will eventually pay for the tool but I think this mindset needs to change and that's where 23:46.680 --> 23:53.000 I suggested having a community or an open source program of a sort of a mindset where people see 23:53.000 --> 24:00.600 the real value of tooling or the larger ecosystem and if I am sponsoring a conference or if I want to 24:00.600 --> 24:06.280 engage more with the community it should be more about yes I am putting value to open source or 24:06.280 --> 24:11.480 I believe in the community mindset rather than eventually looking at your lead count and feeling 24:11.480 --> 24:21.080 disappointed that we don't have five paying customers or calls eventually so I feel it has to be 24:21.080 --> 24:29.080 a mindset shift rather than just getting into task but hopefully with time we see people because 24:29.160 --> 24:38.120 I feel around 2019 through 2022 or 2021 there was a huge open source mindset boom which I personally 24:38.120 --> 24:44.440 noticed and then slowly it has been facing out in the last two and half three years but 24:44.440 --> 24:50.520 hopefully we again see that mindset shift and more emphasis on open source of course 24:50.520 --> 25:02.200 I think one more quick question if anyone has one raise your hand okay I'm going to move really 25:02.200 --> 25:16.760 quickly raise your hand one more time and so I can zero my time don't you think that like in 25:16.760 --> 25:21.080 most of the projects that have the situation at some point of time they basically die 25:22.200 --> 25:28.200 isn't it related also to how the governance of this project was shaped and it's working 25:28.200 --> 25:34.200 because like I remember when I joined one of the projects and I had this electricity that I got paid 25:34.200 --> 25:39.640 to work on the project and we had like pretty strong team but what we did from the very beginning 25:39.640 --> 25:44.760 was we kind of set up the team and we first simulated what's going to happen to the project once 25:44.840 --> 25:50.600 we get laid off like it happened three years ago so we from the very beginning we're always 25:50.600 --> 25:56.120 pushing for a governance where like whatever features we're adding it's always in open it's always 25:56.120 --> 26:02.920 like trying to really build an open governance where like again simulating what's going to happen 26:02.920 --> 26:08.680 once we were laid off and what do you think about this governance absolutely I absolutely agree with you 26:08.680 --> 26:13.000 actually and I'm so sorry to put everyone off but we're we're out of time and there's a 26:13.000 --> 26:17.880 cue of people outside of the gate into the next session so we need these five minutes to turn that 26:18.920 --> 26:22.920 thank you so much everyone I do