WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:11.360 So, so before we actually begin, I can just start, I can, I hate way to the bell to start. 00:11.360 --> 00:16.120 So how many people here know anything about it, how many people are accessibility experts 00:16.120 --> 00:17.120 here? 00:17.120 --> 00:18.120 Okay. 00:18.120 --> 00:19.120 Okay, couple. 00:19.120 --> 00:20.120 Okay. 00:20.120 --> 00:22.120 For getting you along, let me know. 00:22.120 --> 00:27.440 Um, um, how many, is anyone here comfortable acknowledging that if they have a disability 00:27.440 --> 00:28.440 or not? 00:28.440 --> 00:30.880 Do not disclose if you do not feel comfortable, but we've got a couple of people who've 00:30.880 --> 00:34.320 disclosed this, this bill is, that's, that's great. 00:34.320 --> 00:39.840 We've got, um, just statistically, it's a quarter of the population that has a, uh, a disabilities, 00:39.840 --> 00:43.160 but we had to, we smoked show out, showing you in a lot of people like how you define 00:43.160 --> 00:48.200 that is, you know, you know, it's, it's, it's definitely a very personal issue. 00:48.200 --> 00:52.080 Um, how many here's the first time it falls down? 00:52.080 --> 00:53.080 Nice. 00:53.080 --> 00:54.080 Nice. 00:54.400 --> 00:55.500 Good. 00:55.500 --> 01:00.320 Well, is this your, is anyone here, this is the first day it falls down? 01:00.320 --> 01:03.340 Like you're all here yesterday, right? 01:03.340 --> 01:04.340 Okay. 01:04.340 --> 01:05.340 And you survived. 01:05.340 --> 01:06.360 And you made it in the morning. 01:06.360 --> 01:07.360 It's good. 01:07.360 --> 01:08.360 Good. 01:08.360 --> 01:13.160 Um, did anyone have trouble finding the rooms? 01:13.160 --> 01:14.160 Yes. 01:14.160 --> 01:15.160 Yes. 01:15.160 --> 01:16.160 Yes. 01:16.160 --> 01:19.720 I think that this is a, a plan that the universities have, it's like, it's not, it's 01:19.720 --> 01:25.360 It's not unique to this university, universities like to go off and build little mazes that 01:25.360 --> 01:26.360 they run through. 01:26.360 --> 01:32.120 But I do think that the whole lettering system of this university seems to uniquely unusual 01:32.120 --> 01:33.120 on weird. 01:33.120 --> 01:38.760 But, yeah, what else? 01:38.760 --> 01:42.320 Also, another thing, just in terms of just a quick thing on accessibility while we're 01:42.320 --> 01:44.360 killing time. 01:44.360 --> 01:47.920 Imagine if I was a wheelchair, how difficult would it be to go off and present in this window, 01:47.920 --> 01:51.240 because I wouldn't be in the speaking zone, it'd be off to the side. 01:51.240 --> 01:57.600 But almost every university has this stage like this, that the assumption is, if you have 01:57.600 --> 02:06.640 a disability, you're on the ground, you're not in front of the podium, you have a lot 02:06.640 --> 02:10.680 of these sort of cultural assumptions in our society. 02:10.680 --> 02:16.000 Was anyone here drinking past midnight? 02:16.240 --> 02:18.240 Excellent, love it. 02:18.240 --> 02:26.640 Okay, I was not, I was doing other things, but preparing for this presentation to some degree. 02:26.640 --> 02:29.440 Great, we're almost there. 02:29.440 --> 02:33.840 So, without not that you've already not introduced yourself, we've practically taken 02:33.840 --> 02:35.240 the job away from me. 02:35.240 --> 02:39.880 So, everybody, Mike's going to talk to us today about accessibility being a core part of 02:39.880 --> 02:40.880 open source. 02:40.880 --> 02:42.280 So, please welcome Mike Gifford. 02:42.280 --> 02:43.280 Thank you. 02:43.280 --> 02:51.640 So, I'm a triple core accessibility maintainer. 02:51.640 --> 02:59.680 I am a WC3 embedded experts, I work at civic actions, doing work to advise governments 02:59.680 --> 03:03.720 and organizations on accessibility, open source, and, in fact, we have sustainability for 03:03.720 --> 03:05.800 that matter as well. 03:05.800 --> 03:10.760 But it occurred to me, it was a problem yesterday that after giving another accessibility 03:10.800 --> 03:16.120 talk in the afternoon, that there's a lot that our community isn't doing to support 03:16.120 --> 03:17.360 people with disabilities. 03:17.360 --> 03:22.280 I'm a part of the reason I'm this talk was to try and sort of compare the four freedoms 03:22.280 --> 03:28.000 with accessibility, but there's one that just, you know, around a really basic scan to see 03:28.000 --> 03:30.600 how accessible is the Faust and Website. 03:30.600 --> 03:35.960 It's not really accessible, like there's pages here with just automated tools or getting 03:35.960 --> 03:41.320 like 11, 10, 9 issues, like this is just a scan of some weight pages that I scan 03:41.320 --> 03:42.320 last night. 03:42.320 --> 03:46.360 We're not doing very much accessibility for Faust and Website. 03:46.360 --> 03:50.440 There's some information around making the facilities, works, or maybe event more, the 03:50.440 --> 03:53.960 Carvestmore accessible, but there's a lot more that can be done, and I've dropped some 03:53.960 --> 03:58.520 issues in the issue queue this morning to try and highlight this. 03:58.520 --> 04:02.840 One of the things I also have done, which I didn't do yesterday, but I should have done 04:02.840 --> 04:04.840 the yesterday, but I didn't. 04:04.840 --> 04:11.160 Now at the bottom, you can also see text, if you have really good eyes, make this a little 04:11.160 --> 04:13.160 bit bigger. 04:13.160 --> 04:24.400 We don't have cart that the speech to text enabled is part of how we build our, there we go. 04:24.400 --> 04:25.400 Thank you. 04:25.400 --> 04:30.680 So we need to be able to go off and support more people who are deaf or hard of hearing 04:30.680 --> 04:32.800 and using cart as a great way to do that. 04:32.880 --> 04:36.280 There's in fact other ways to go off and benefits of having this kind of infrastructure 04:36.280 --> 04:40.960 as well, because how many people here have English as their first language? 04:40.960 --> 04:45.080 Okay, there's a lot of people here who don't have English as their first language. 04:45.080 --> 04:46.800 Sometimes it's easier to read the text. 04:46.800 --> 04:52.000 Sometimes it's easier if you've got the text to convert it into French or German or Italian, 04:52.000 --> 04:55.960 so you can read the content to multiple languages, and if you've gone to the effort of making 04:55.960 --> 04:59.560 something accessible and cart, you can make it accessible and other things. 04:59.640 --> 05:03.040 Anyways, back to my talk, because that's what this is really about. 05:03.040 --> 05:05.960 So I apologize for that initial rant. 05:05.960 --> 05:15.400 So the core premise here is that digital sovereignty is built on the four freedoms, 05:15.400 --> 05:23.120 but without accessibility and that sort of intentional, inclusive effort, it's worthless. 05:23.120 --> 05:28.160 That accessibility and software freedom are the enabling each other at scale. 05:28.160 --> 05:31.240 But we need to be thinking about it intentionally. 05:31.240 --> 05:36.520 Sobrety is the ability to perceive, sorry, sovereignty equals the ability to perceive, 05:36.520 --> 05:38.240 operate, and control. 05:38.240 --> 05:45.520 And if you cannot use the interface, because it hasn't provided you the affordances 05:45.520 --> 05:51.600 to make the site to use it, you can't, you don't have the freedoms of the, 05:51.600 --> 05:53.640 this movement has been working to meet. 05:53.640 --> 05:57.360 We have to work on them together. 05:57.400 --> 06:03.600 So for freedoms, just to go off and to put them in the context of accessibility, 06:03.600 --> 06:08.720 the freedom to use, looking at the assistive technology and accessibility configurations. 06:08.720 --> 06:10.880 That's the core part of that. 06:10.880 --> 06:17.520 The freedom to study to inspect, to verify, to evaluate the, to share, 06:17.520 --> 06:20.480 the ability to share this with others, to learn from others. 06:20.480 --> 06:26.840 And also to improve, to fix those by some push them upstream, to address that as part of that. 06:26.840 --> 06:34.200 Or make it perceivable, operable, understandable, and robust. 06:34.200 --> 06:39.000 These are the WK principles, and we're trying to go off and say, like, we need to, 06:39.000 --> 06:43.400 to line this up so that we, we're thinking about the four freedoms and accessibility 06:43.400 --> 06:48.440 at the same time as part and parcel of the same challenge of making sure that, 06:48.440 --> 06:52.840 that either our future selves, or our colleagues, or our friends, 06:52.840 --> 07:00.200 or people we don't know, are able to go off and use these tools that we're working so hard to build. 07:00.200 --> 07:08.280 So accessibility predates the idea of software freedom. 07:08.280 --> 07:12.040 We look at so many of the innovations and technologies that we, we benefit from, 07:12.040 --> 07:16.520 like the keyboard, the keyboard is something that was, was built, 07:16.520 --> 07:21.400 because for blind, just to try and support blind users, to help them communicate. 07:21.400 --> 07:24.520 There's other things that we're, we're benefiting from, like, 07:24.520 --> 07:29.640 imagine how, how well, Siri, or Alexa home, or these, these other devices, 07:29.640 --> 07:34.680 would work. If we didn't have years of screen reader users engaging with technology, 07:34.680 --> 07:38.280 trying to build a semantic web so that they can engage with the technology. 07:39.640 --> 07:47.640 And I think that that, that accessibility is, is how people actually exercise sovereignty. 07:47.640 --> 07:55.720 If you don't have that, that connection between what the technology allows you to do 07:55.720 --> 07:59.960 and how the site and the technology is built, for not taking advantage of that, 07:59.960 --> 08:04.440 we're not really able to go off and to meet our goals. 08:05.720 --> 08:10.040 But it's also that by thinking about accessibility and sovereignty together, 08:10.040 --> 08:13.400 we're building more, more robust, more durable solutions. 08:14.280 --> 08:20.600 Because everyone should have the right to inspect, fix, and share the technology that they're 08:20.600 --> 08:27.640 using. And if we believe that, we have to do a much better job of things like this. 08:28.360 --> 08:32.120 This should, this is just an automated accessibility tool. This is easy. This took me 08:32.520 --> 08:37.800 less than five minutes to run. And this has been an ongoing issue for phosed in for ages. 08:38.200 --> 08:50.440 In fact, if we go back right here and go, sorry, if you've got to, what the QR code 08:50.440 --> 08:57.080 about hand out so this is well. So definitely, you can take a look at some of the handouts. 08:57.080 --> 09:02.440 All of the slides are available online as well. They're reasonably accessible. I haven't done 09:02.440 --> 09:06.200 a full check of them, but I've done certainly the full automated tests of them. And I'm building 09:06.200 --> 09:10.840 on a library that was built by the WC3. So they've done some reasonable testing with it as well. 09:12.920 --> 09:17.400 So that doesn't work very well. So, 09:22.680 --> 09:35.400 there it go. So 10 years ago, at Phosetown, there was a group called Liberty. 09:35.400 --> 09:39.000 Liberty is your own. Does anyone, anywhere remember that? Anyone there? 09:40.680 --> 09:47.560 So they tried to go off and engage with the Phosetown community to try and say, let accessibility 09:47.560 --> 09:55.000 has to be part of this movement. We have to build it in. So we're thinking about how we're 09:55.000 --> 10:01.320 including people with disabilities in this movement. And by the way, how many of you are human? 10:01.320 --> 10:07.800 Okay, good. Because all of you are going to have disabilities. It is a part of life. If you're 10:07.800 --> 10:12.360 lucky enough to get old, you will have disabilities. That's because our bodies 10:13.000 --> 10:18.280 were down. Their eyes get weaker. Their brain skips. Harder to go off and navigate. 10:20.280 --> 10:26.200 It's just part of life, but we don't want to talk about it, but it is part of life. Anyways, 10:26.280 --> 10:35.640 the liberate folks got together trying to have to try to ensure that we're bringing in accessibility 10:35.640 --> 10:43.160 as part of how our community works. People like us do things like this. That means including 10:43.160 --> 10:51.080 everyone. And not excluding people because it's inconvenient. So early leadership from 10:51.800 --> 10:56.520 our many Christoph and Samuel, I don't know what the getting them are here, but they're 10:56.520 --> 11:03.720 certainly all three of them are available online and easy to access. So communities what keeps 11:03.720 --> 11:10.760 free alive. Phosetown thrives when you have a group of people engaging together, learning from each 11:10.760 --> 11:18.680 other, finding bugs, putting them in future was like that is how our communities grow and are able 11:19.000 --> 11:27.160 to remain relevant and accessibility thrives when people care about them. When we care about 11:27.160 --> 11:32.760 each other, when we're able to understand and think about how does somebody else perceive what I'm 11:32.760 --> 11:39.000 trying to do? How do they interact with it? Just making it real and trying to pull people into the 11:39.000 --> 11:48.520 process of thinking about the practicalities of how people engage with this, this 11:48.520 --> 11:57.640 technology. And we have to have the freedom for people to participate, which means investing in 11:57.640 --> 12:08.200 the time of making these tools accessible. So by the little icons, if you can see them are from the 12:08.200 --> 12:13.880 Microsoft's inclusive design toolkit, it's a Microsoft is on some really fascinating stuff on 12:13.880 --> 12:21.720 accessibility, including their accessibility insights web extension, which uses acts, which is 12:21.720 --> 12:29.880 a, in fact, really interesting model of accessibility. So if we think about inclusive design as a 12:29.880 --> 12:36.840 multiplier participation, because there are deafening people who have permanent disabilities, 12:37.720 --> 12:44.760 and, again, the Microsoft inclusive design research, their report has a lot more information 12:44.760 --> 12:49.560 on this and how they've broken this down. But there's certain people with permanent disabilities, 12:49.560 --> 12:55.480 but there's also people with temporary disabilities. Anyway, here, broken our arm recently, 12:56.680 --> 13:00.040 it's really hard to go off and use a mouse if you've broken in our arm or to navigate 13:00.040 --> 13:03.320 you through keyboard like these technologies, like this is just a normal part of life. 13:04.280 --> 13:09.800 situational disabilities, like I was in rooms earlier earlier this week that the 13:09.800 --> 13:14.680 the bulb was dying or that was too much too bright so they couldn't see the screen. Well, you know, 13:14.680 --> 13:21.720 we can, this is just a normal part of engaging with modern life. You know, so many of us go outside 13:21.720 --> 13:26.120 and look at her phones and it's like, wow, there's too much glare because there's just a gray 13:26.120 --> 13:32.120 overcast day or it's too sunny or whatever. Like, this is just life. But we have to be thinking 13:32.120 --> 13:37.400 about it and not thinking about it as a regulation or something that we have to do. The other thing 13:37.400 --> 13:42.440 is in terms of a curb cut effect, if we go off and make things easier for people, 13:43.480 --> 13:48.200 then it will improve not only search engine optimization, but also performance. There's a lot of 13:48.200 --> 13:53.000 ways that it's that thinking about accessibility is just thinking about making your technology 13:53.000 --> 13:59.000 better. It's about quality control. It's about doing a good job. And on that note, 13:59.880 --> 14:06.520 I have a book announcement to that. So I was one of 30 authors that was involved in the disability 14:06.520 --> 14:13.800 ethics book, the first book of its kind, and it's disability inclusion for all things tech. So 14:13.800 --> 14:18.840 there's a bunch of us who looked written on different angles and the chapter that I took on 14:18.840 --> 14:23.160 was looking at open source and accessibility, trying to line this out and expand this out to a 14:23.160 --> 14:29.480 greater degree. So if you're interested, it'll be available in March. And there's so many other 14:29.480 --> 14:34.040 in the accessibility field. So many of the greats are involved in the writing chapters of this book. 14:34.040 --> 14:39.880 And I'm a low in moderate or a low contributor to this, but did it chat for an open source. 14:42.040 --> 14:46.680 There's also looking at, say what I heard about GitHub's accessibility day in 14:46.680 --> 14:53.400 all things open and rally earlier this year or last year. So they had a whole day workshop on 14:53.400 --> 15:00.440 accessibility, where they were trying to to think about how to expand, how do we get open source 15:00.440 --> 15:03.960 and accessibility, like part of open source projects? How do we engage with that? 15:05.240 --> 15:09.960 And again, it was an interesting way to go off into to bring people together and to learn about 15:11.720 --> 15:14.680 raise awareness, to think about government issues, to think about testing and 15:14.680 --> 15:20.920 tool difficulties to learn from so many of the leaders in the accessibility space and the open source 15:20.920 --> 15:25.960 space. And it will be happening again this next year. And GitHub has really done some amazing 15:25.960 --> 15:30.280 work recently to go off an invested accessibility in this great to see the leadership that they've 15:30.280 --> 15:37.000 had and the opportunity to push the open source community ahead. So governance is a huge issue. 15:37.880 --> 15:45.560 So often it's trying to, we have to move beyond checklists, we have to move to actually 15:45.560 --> 15:51.880 shifting the culture, but checklists are a good place to start, so we're looking for good libraries, 15:51.880 --> 15:57.640 so we're pushing your fixes upstream, so we're thinking about how do we build in these 15:57.640 --> 16:01.480 these workflows so that we don't have to think about it. It's just something that, oh, if you want, 16:01.480 --> 16:06.680 it's like spell check. If imagine what our workflows would be like if 16:07.160 --> 16:11.320 you have spell check, if your documents were spell check, two or three months after you had written them, 16:11.880 --> 16:15.720 that's how our accessibility is. We shouldn't, it shouldn't be that way. There's lots of tools to 16:15.720 --> 16:19.560 make it so that if you make a commit, you can't make a commit and tell it's accessible. That's 16:19.560 --> 16:25.560 something we could all do. It's not that hard to get up to go off into run tests to ensure that 16:25.560 --> 16:31.000 your tools have been evaluated for accessibility before you push them. But it's not something that 16:31.160 --> 16:36.680 any, well, almost no projects do that, because it hasn't been a priority. But 16:39.480 --> 16:44.440 we're in an article a while back and GitHub's magazine read me and part of it is just from 16:44.440 --> 16:50.280 my experience in Drupal. Instead, if we treat accessibility issues as bugs, if we have leadership in 16:50.280 --> 16:57.240 the organization, talk about accessibility, if we have the releases of major releases delayed, 16:57.240 --> 17:02.120 because of accessibility fixes, not being addressed, it really demonstrates the community cares 17:02.120 --> 17:08.280 and is pushing this forward. Most organizations don't prioritize accessibility. And again, 17:08.280 --> 17:13.240 that means that the messages are clear. This is something we can push off. It's not a series 17:13.240 --> 17:19.240 as security. It's not a series as performance. It's not as per, a series has so many other issues 17:19.240 --> 17:23.640 we prefer prioritize, at least that's the message. But if you're cutting out a quarter of the 17:23.640 --> 17:27.240 population, because you're not thinking about accessibility, that's a huge thing. 17:29.800 --> 17:38.440 And yeah, if we're going back to the four freedoms, if we're excluding people from contributing, 17:38.840 --> 17:44.360 we're limiting their sovereignty. So we need to be thinking about how do we, how do we 17:44.360 --> 17:49.560 try and ensure that people are not being left as passive consumers, because there's no way 17:49.560 --> 17:54.280 for them to be engaged. And again, it's nice that GitHub has done an amazing job recently 17:54.280 --> 18:00.520 of improving the accessibility of their site. As being part of the WC3, I know there's a lot of work 18:00.520 --> 18:06.680 that's being done to ensure that GitHub is as accessible as they're able to make it right now, 18:06.680 --> 18:11.080 and that there's continuing to push it forward to be, it's not about being accessibility isn't 18:11.080 --> 18:15.640 about being perfect. It's about being more accessible today than you were yesterday. How do you 18:15.640 --> 18:25.240 push it forward to your proving progress over time? So it's definitely that we can see, 18:27.560 --> 18:32.920 having open accessible collaborations is a great angle for sovereignty, a great key for 18:32.920 --> 18:40.040 sovereignty, both personal and organisational and national for that matter. And we can start thinking 18:40.040 --> 18:46.840 about how do we raise the culture of organisations to be including accessibility as part of that. 18:48.200 --> 18:53.640 Having an accessibility issue queue that's open really does help to let people learn more about 18:53.640 --> 18:58.840 the issues and see exactly where your where the accessibility problems are. So if you see an issue 18:59.400 --> 19:04.840 in any project that you use, do take the time to report it. On the Boston website, there's been 19:04.840 --> 19:09.320 very few reports of accessibility issues. I did a search there to see what was there. 19:09.400 --> 19:14.840 There haven't been that many people who reported it, reported anything. Terrace Eden did 19:14.840 --> 19:18.680 in a little while ago, but that's the only other thing that I've seen. 19:21.080 --> 19:27.160 So sustainability requires the ability to improve. So let's try to make things that are lightweight. 19:28.120 --> 19:32.600 Let's try and work with tools that work for everyone and try and engage with that. 19:33.640 --> 19:38.920 Let's try and make sure that we're setting up the ability to repair our technology by everyone, 19:38.920 --> 19:45.400 not just people who don't have disabilities. I also just like all at highlight that we are in 19:45.400 --> 19:52.120 a climate crisis. It seems like a bit of a tangent, but it is something that we need to be thinking 19:52.120 --> 19:56.520 about in all of our meetings and all of our work is that we are in a climate crisis. So how do we 19:56.520 --> 20:01.800 try and address that? And people with disabilities are so often overlooked even in climate situations 20:01.800 --> 20:06.680 or crisis situations. So like how do if there's an emergency, how do people with disabilities 20:06.680 --> 20:13.160 get out of the building safely? What are the ways that they can deal with with our crisis 20:13.160 --> 20:21.960 situations? It's so often an afterthought, which is problematic. So I think it's also useful to 20:21.960 --> 20:26.760 try and think about prioritizing community. How do we ask for help? How do we ask for engagement? 20:26.760 --> 20:32.040 How do we find ways to contribute what we've done upstream, to share with each other? 20:33.000 --> 20:39.560 I have shared the issue queue for Fossdom, some resources that the Drupal community has done. 20:39.560 --> 20:43.880 The Drupal community has built a handbook. We have a lot of resources available on Drupal.org. 20:43.880 --> 20:48.920 Around how to build a more inclusive community. And it has helped us build a stronger community 20:48.920 --> 20:53.880 both with government, educational sector and with other places because it's clear that we do 20:53.880 --> 21:01.400 want to bring people in. We want to include people because we're a project that drives on innovation 21:01.400 --> 21:08.520 and smart people and there's a lot of smart people with disabilities. I also like to see that 21:08.520 --> 21:14.600 we're looking at what you're shipping. Like our goal should be that we ship the most accessible 21:14.600 --> 21:22.040 tool by default. So how do we try and default to to open for sure but also default to accessible? 21:22.040 --> 21:26.360 So that we're not doing this as an afterthought, but it's something that we're building into the 21:26.360 --> 21:35.560 process as well. And I have a little bit of time for questions I think. I can talk for a 21:35.560 --> 21:39.960 lot longer but just to try and because I have put this challenge out to the community because 21:39.960 --> 21:47.240 anyone have any thoughts? Yes. Hi Mike. Thank you for the presentation. I'm at it. I'm a black 21:47.320 --> 21:56.760 Caucasian male, wearing a black hoodie and jeans. My question is more than afterthought. 21:58.840 --> 22:07.000 While we talk all about this, I think a bigger challenge is always how do we put ourselves in 22:08.280 --> 22:15.720 these people's shoes? Right. How would you suggest or where do you suggest we start? 22:15.720 --> 22:26.120 Because unless we lose some eyesight for temporarily, we don't really understand what these people 22:26.120 --> 22:33.320 go through and this is not necessarily physical disabilities but more mental disorders as well. 22:33.320 --> 22:40.760 So where do you suggest we start? Well there's a couple different ways to start. One is that 22:40.760 --> 22:49.800 you're with Penn Pot, right? Yes. Excellent. Wonderful tool. One is you can start as 22:49.800 --> 22:54.040 by educating yourself. There's lots of resources out there. There's lots to read. There's movies 22:54.040 --> 22:58.840 to watch as well. But even better, it's to ask people to be involved in the community. You're 22:58.840 --> 23:03.880 asked people to identify and bring people in and make it clear that you're trying to involve 23:03.880 --> 23:08.040 them and that you're trying to make things better. And with visual tools like Penn Pot, 23:08.040 --> 23:14.120 that's especially challenging if you want to involve the blind users and the blind community. 23:14.120 --> 23:17.880 But there's also just reaching out to people who have disabilities who are around and 23:17.880 --> 23:21.480 just unusual because you're, yes, that question but the person who's sitting behind you, 23:22.520 --> 23:28.040 I was chatting with earlier and yes, as a game, something with the disability, 23:28.040 --> 23:33.080 who's part of this community and volunteering in this community, talking with them and engaging 23:33.080 --> 23:37.400 with them and learning from them. There's so much more you can learn not from talking to me, 23:37.400 --> 23:42.200 but talking to people with disabilities and engaging with them and learning from their expertise. 23:42.200 --> 23:47.800 So how do we find ways to hire them? How do we find ways to ask them and take, 23:47.800 --> 23:51.960 give them leadership and learn from them about what they, what will work for them? 23:53.960 --> 24:01.000 Oh, yep. Thank you for the presentation. Thank you. And my name is Kavanaughy and I work 24:01.000 --> 24:06.280 at the European Disability Forum, which is a disability organization and we actually have 24:07.160 --> 24:14.040 inclusive AI project and to answer the last question, I also think that asking people with disabilities 24:14.040 --> 24:20.280 as you said is really important. We're trying to actually bridge the connection between the disability 24:20.280 --> 24:27.000 community and developers have a few infographics for people who are interested. It's about building 24:27.000 --> 24:33.640 better AI, but really it's not that you can always imagine how it is to have a disability. If you 24:34.520 --> 24:40.680 don't have one, there is a likelihood that you might miss some important things. So I'm hoping 24:40.680 --> 24:46.040 that we could somehow build some kind of organization where you can connect developers with 24:46.680 --> 24:51.800 people with disabilities because it is through testing and that you will grasp most things. 24:54.040 --> 24:57.560 So lived experiences really? Well, except for goodwill. 24:57.880 --> 25:02.600 And you're going to be bringing those pamphlets up here at the end of the session and also 25:02.600 --> 25:14.280 I have stickers of people on stickers, stickers. And I think you're going to have to read it out. 25:28.440 --> 25:34.680 The next falls them, shooting flute, a dedicated AI track focused on digital accessibility. 25:40.040 --> 25:47.800 So this is called Kurt and it's it's I installed this on my laptop 25:48.120 --> 25:54.680 between 1145 and 1202 last night because I realized that there's a good chance there might be 25:55.640 --> 25:57.640 useful, but it really is not that hard to do. 26:07.640 --> 26:09.880 The next falls them. We should have a track dedicated for 26:10.600 --> 26:15.080 AI accessibility. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I think we're on time. 26:16.120 --> 26:18.920 We have another minute for last question. That's quick. 26:25.480 --> 26:34.680 But thank you. The question is about government laws about accessibility and how can those 26:34.680 --> 26:41.400 be enforced on free open source software if and if it could be at all. For example, the web 26:41.400 --> 26:47.240 accessibility directors that are in various countries in the EU, the US, Canada. 26:48.440 --> 26:51.800 It's really a question. I could definitely talk about this for hours, but 26:52.760 --> 26:58.680 the way Europe has decided to go off into do things is to focus much more on the delivery. 26:58.680 --> 27:05.240 So the government organizations who are going off and implementing it, they're responsible for the 27:05.240 --> 27:10.120 accessibility. Whereas the US, they tried to go off and put the accessibility on the producers, 27:10.120 --> 27:15.080 the products are of making the services. So and that's with a lot of the litigation comes in. 27:15.720 --> 27:20.920 But with the, and they're also the hope that the, like European accessibility act would go and 27:20.920 --> 27:27.080 provide a, if everyone who's selling services in the EU has to make them accessible, then they don't 27:27.080 --> 27:32.120 have, then that also solves the problem. But the challenge is that that all depends on enforcement.