WEBVTT

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All right, so we are going to have our next speaker, so this talk is about from policy

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to practice, open source in the Dutch government by China and we have the floor to see

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us.

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Awesome, thank you.

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Hey guys, it's very warm here, it's all very grateful for you all to see you all here.

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It is the seventh year that I am here, seven years ago, I came here with my colleague

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Angela who I hope is in the...there she is, in the audience, we were building an open source

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environment for an international loan profit and we came here for inspiration.

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We love that so much that we came here every year, albeit sometimes digitally.

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So I am very honored to be speaking here today, thank you.

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I'm going to tell you a little bit about policy in the open source...sorry, open source

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policy in the Dutch government because there is a lot happening.

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It would be nice at this work, that works so well.

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As I think all of you know, open source started as fun little hobby projects that we were

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all eager to contribute to and for us, the government sort of became a tool to maybe

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save some money somewhere along the way, to now being integral to our digital sovereignty,

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both on a national level and at the European level.

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So with all of the developments with Microsoft and all of the other news and Greenland,

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digital sovereignty has become a really hot topic and thus open source also gain traction.

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And now we're even contributing, collaborating on a European level on open source

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and the European Parliament Commission is also involved in bringing this to a European

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stage. I don't think I need to show you this slide. I think you are all aware of why open

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source and digital sovereignty are now connected, but I would always like to highlight the

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example of the international criminal court having their email blocked by Microsoft,

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which was sort of the catalyst for government to see open source as this important tool

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for a digital sovereignty. I hope this is readable, especially the first part.

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This is a timeline of policy in the Dutch government regarding open source and it starts all the way

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back when my frontal lobe wasn't even developed yet in 2003 with the vendor commotion, which was

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the first piece of policy that promoted the use of open source. And I would like to emphasize

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that policy is more than just boring rules. It is what we as a government find important and

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thus what we will find funding for does policy equals money.

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It all explained this, but it all started with the vendor commotion from that came a few

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programs that sort of implemented open source and open stand there. It's not really that actively yet.

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It wasn't until open unless came as a policy measure that open source really started to gain

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traction and really started to get noticed. Unless means that governments who

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procure or build their own software need to use open source as default, unless there's a reason not

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to. Now unfortunately especially in the beginning, the unless was very popular. So

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took a while to choose the right way. But it meant that we were now held to active publication

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of our source code because source code is government information. There between 2003 and this moment

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there were countless other policy documents that my colleagues will know, but this is a big one

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that was recently recently. The focus here is transparency making sure that our government code

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is also usable and eligible for civilians for citizens. And of course you see here the influence

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of the public money is public code campaign so shout out to the FS of the. Yeah, it's been

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since 2020, a lot of stuff has happened. Open source has got a lot of traction because it's been

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linked to digital sovereignty. We have the Dutch digital strategy that came out last year

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which has sort of six pillars in which open source is at the foundation we think and especially

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digital autonomy. Which means that now that we have prioritized this funding is being allocated towards

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it. Same with the next one. This is a gift from the previous government as of yesterday.

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We have a new government with a new vision but they seem to be very well influenced by this piece.

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Which means that there's now political commitments to digital autonomy and this will sovereignty

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and the use of open source and open standards. And it focuses a lot on the sovereignty part of it.

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And with that to much to our pleasure came a strong call to use European open source alternatives

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which we have been building. Oh, got a little too fast. Sorry. That's sort of the policy side.

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I would also like to tell you some examples of where this policy came to be,

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where it how it came to be in practice. Starting with and what challenges arose from that.

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Starting with a very small project called OpenCat. And OpenCat came to be around 2020 during the

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COVID crisis and is sort of linked to the first signs of the open-unless policy.

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So it's a vulnerability tool used to strengthen the ecosystem around the COVID app and later a bunch

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of other apps because it's just a great tool to secure the production environments. And it was built

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by the Ministry of Health. After a while after COVID app wasn't that necessary anymore,

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the app was still being used by also a lot of other parties but the Health Department was kind of

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done with it. So then the question came to be, okay, what do we do now?

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Before that there was also a discussion on, okay, there's this open-unless policy. Should we

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maybe open-source this and then how do we do that? There was a strong conversation. I'm

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I and my colleague here at the Ministry of the Health Department. There was a strong conversation

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with the legal department of the Ministry to ask, yeah, what are we allowed to publish and how and where.

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And once that was figured out, it was made open-source. One of the first projects. And then the

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question came to be, okay, once we're done with it, where will it lens? Who is going to maintain it?

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Fortunately, it found a strong community of maintainers and they set up a foundation and it found

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its home there. I mentioned this one because it's one of the first ones, sure that there are many

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before but this is one of the big ones where government got involved and realized, oh, we need a strategy here.

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The next one is one that I'm very proud of. It's Manburo. It is the Dutch version of last

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suite and the German openness. It's the open-source alternative workspace for government employees.

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And it's filled with open-source alternatives. This is sort of what online I did six years ago

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at the Mama Cash Foundation but now on a national level. It's really nice and it's made in the

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edict. So it's made in collaboration with France, Germany and a bunch of other countries.

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But this also raises the question again of where we're building this. Where is this going to land?

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Who's going to maintain it? But also procurement questions. So how will a support of the apps work?

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Who is going to, how the SLAs? All of the legal stuff behind procurement but now it's a bunch of

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open-source apps and we've never done that before. How does that work? And how do we collaborate

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and finance to the cross government? Because everyone wants to use it but who's going to finance?

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So that's something that we are discovering. And my personal favorite, my pet project is the

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co-platform because we are going to move all our code or at least offer an alternative to GitHub

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for government code. That is most likely going to be before J.O. if I pronounce it correctly this time.

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We are going to pilot that and we're going to host it on the Daoostec that digitally autonomous

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workspace stack. But that also again, we have the same challenges again. So how do we

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how do we ensure that we have a strong community of maintainers and not just that, not just on our side

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but also how do we support the for J.O. community? How do we ensure that once we choose the

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solution that it will still be there 10 years and how do we ensure its sustainability?

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That is a question that we have never had to ask because we've always just paid for a contract and then

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they would be legally obligated and it's arranged. And now there's a whole different way of engaging

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with these communities and with code and with not just taking but also contributing. So that's

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what we're trying to figure out. And also yes, we've got mentioned on Hacker News because we are

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trying to do this as openness possible. So this is sort of our conclusion.

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It's not the tech. The tech is fine. We've seen that in my bido and all of the other examples

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it's governments. We need to get out of our own way. There's just a lot to sort out.

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Whether it's procurement, that my reason I was a lot about or community building, all that stuff.

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So the lessons learned from government, from the Ospo, from also for the communities,

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is that and within the government mostly, is that a lot of it is happening.

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I don't want to say the bottom, but at the level of people that actually code,

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that's where the solutions come from. They build the tech. And we should be funding them.

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Because too often we see that someone comes up with a great solution and then all of a sudden

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now they have to maintain it. And how do we ensure that that is done sustainably?

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Second, if we do build open source, if we do build our own solutions, or we start contributing,

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then maybe we need a place where it can land. Because I think the perception still is that if we

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choose these open source solutions, then we're done. No, it also needs infrastructure. And that also

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needs to be sovereign to host your app on Azure, that sort of defeats point.

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And finally, if we decide to buy, so if procurement happens, then we need to help open source

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communities small or large with getting information to be able to help to be involved in this

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procurement. Because we have a lot of rules, it's about the size of your company, the amount of money

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you have, the amount of boys you have, to get through that that's a different way of procurement.

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Otherwise you'll keep on ending up with big tech, big consultancy, and just the same sort of solutions.

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So that's a challenge for us, not even for the communities. I think that is about it.

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I've kept it short, so there could be questions.

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Any questions in the back?

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What's your thoughts on a set of life versus a set of life approach for the legislation

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of governments? Like, for example, do you want to hear speech touch across the Belgian

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approach, which is they started fading as the government will need to see if they're leaving

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that out of them, because we need to continue to act with all of the services.

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Then, of course, we worked, the EI can easily get success to read from that, and that is also

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about the only success to read out of that, so I'm curious what your thoughts are about,

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do you think the second life thing that we should build to make that happen?

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Or is it a set of life things where you have multiple government needs to kind of do their own things?

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Yeah. Yeah. So the question was about thoughts on centralization and the centralization,

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and there was an example from Belgium, but it's mostly decentralization across government agencies

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then, right? That's a very good question. I think that when choosing open source, you should have

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the freedom, as usual, and the liberty to choose your own stack. But since we are governments,

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and we need to provide certain services, they should be linked and be able to work together as well.

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So, same with the co-platform, we are going to set up for you. You're free to choose another platform,

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if you want. But there will be probably an obligation to mirror your code there,

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because of this transparency laws. I am personally all for decentralization, as long as it works

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well together. It needs to be interoperable and compatible with each other.

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Okay. I will wait one second with the microphone.

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Great technology. Yeah, it's more of a scaling question that I have, because you talked about

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the government and how to use like, yeah, open source in the public sector, right? But how can we

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raise awareness? Because especially if we want to be more sovereign, it should not be just

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in the public sector. I believe. Yeah. So, what can we do and how can we raise awareness so that

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outside of these two kilometer radius? People actually know that open source exists that there are

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non-US or Chinese or commercial solutions that actually exist and that are as good if not better,

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than what they actually use. Just as a quick, you mentioned like, top down, bottom up, right?

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Would it be possible that the European governments, if they really believe in open source,

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they would start spreading the word that open source actually exists, right? So that it would be like

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government initiative to actually share and, yeah, so not just in public, basically, but also in our daily

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lives. Yeah. I think that's an excellent question, because it touched upon how do we involve not

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just government, but also regular people, civilians, and not just to select group programmers that

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we happen to like or to fund, but the broader public and how do we create awareness? I think

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I think the European Commission and the parliament already do a great job, and we have lobby

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organizations such as the FSFE who are doing campaigns. It's still a task for governments to

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create more awareness on it, but for the Dutch governments, I'm actually mildly impressed with how

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prioritizing this as of the new government, I know. But yeah, it is a task for government to make

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to create more awareness and to make this more visible. But also for these projects that I mentioned,

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at some point, we will have to think about how are we going to engage a broader public,

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and not just have it foreign by governments that will be a shame. We have another question here,

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one thing about questions, when you race your hand, keep it up so that I know, and it's also

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like who holds it longer, has a higher chance that I will see that.

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Thank you very much for your talk. You say how do we ensure sustainability? This is the question

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we've never had to ask from the open source community from maintainers and people who are

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doing the actual coding, what would be the most useful resources for you to understand that

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question as a policy maker? What can we provide for you that would make that an easier question

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around sustainability? Yeah, so I'm very active on that on, and I asked our server in the wider

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Fediver's once, what would you, how would you like to be supported if we chose your solution?

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Would you want money? Would you want hand to help out with coding? Would you want to be left alone?

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And I got many answers. There wasn't one uniform answer, but even if the answer is we want money,

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or we want hands, then we still need to help them get into a place where they can accept that help.

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And that goes from the start of procurement, we want to buy our user solution all the way to

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we're now active collaborators and maintainers. Yeah, that's something that we still need to figure out.

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On the Dutch level, the Ospo helped found the DulseBad, the Dutch open source business

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alliance, there's also the appell at the European level where a lot of open source communities

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and businesses come together, and they then conform a block sort of a group to deal with governments,

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and to bid on tenors together, for example. So I have another question here, then here,

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then there and there. I will do my best. I understand that my presentation.

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Yeah, who made a quick question, you stated a lot of very good, very fundamental questions in

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the presentation, but can you elaborate a little bit further on where you are on exploring those questions?

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Like, what are the actual outcomes that you've already achieved or not yet achieved,

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struggle with in particular? Can you talk a bit more about that? Yeah, yeah. So what we have figured

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out is, in this use case, what is allowed? When can we publish something? That's something that

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we're now pretty comfortable answering. This is something that we're in the middle of, so how

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is it going to work when we use a suite with all of these different open source solutions,

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and then we have to prepare some and so on or free, and now do we collaborate? So that's where we're still

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finding answers, basically. So another question here? Thank you very much. I wanted to ask about

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a point you touch upon in the presentation about cloud services, about big tech, and how we want to

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look at those with a critical eyes, right? And I just wondering what do you think the gaps are,

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I'm thinking about cloud services, for example, and how to tackle maybe those gaps, and what

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the Dutch government can do, and you mentioned policy equal money, which is a good,

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no-mechanical, it also can be tackled at the Dutch level and what maybe the European level.

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Yeah, so the question being about the infrastructure and then the big tech alternatives on

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Yeah, and the gaps that there are. Well, I'm glad that this slide is open, because we've been

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very active on this front, but this is of course sort of the front end of what a civil

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government sees, and then where are you going to host this? That is still a big problem for Dutch

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government, because we don't have an integrated, nice government cloud. So we're still in the

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awkward position that we have, all of these great alternatives, and then oh, where are we going to

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host it, and oh, that's like 10 times more expensive than AWS, for example. So that's something

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for us to figure out. Unfortunately, we do have, as I mentioned on this slide, but we have a team

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that is working on that, besides the whole cloud infrastructure, but also Davo, the digitally

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autonomous workspace, they're sort of looking at alternatives on a server level, infrastructure,

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the whole networks, and then the OS, and then to bring that together. So another question here,

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and again, if you want to ask a question, I saw some with the order, keep it up, else I will think,

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okay, answer your question is answered, and you're at the back of the queue again. Sorry.

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Hi, my name is Katina Mayerson from the Coalition for Fair to do this to education,

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and I'm trying to move the entire education sector also to open source, but what I noticed is mentioned

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a lot of positive things in energy that are things that are happening, but what I noticed,

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if you look back into the history, it's since most of the Hendrik, so like over 20 years,

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over 20 years, the politics, or say, oh, you shoot, do open source, and after such a motion is adopted,

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then there's a bit of positive vibe, and some things happen. And after a few months,

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everybody goes back to normal, so the American cloud again. I mean, at the same time we're talking

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about this, and all the positive things you mentioned, the tax offices still busy migrating towards

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the American cloud. So why would it this time be different? I think, yeah, excellent question.

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Why would this time be different? Because we've done it so often, and then we saw the

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our back on Microsoft and Google and Amazon. I think this time is going to be different,

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and I might be a bit of an optimist in that, because it's now gone from, oh, we might say,

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if money, or we don't like bush, but Microsoft's so easy to digital sovereignty.

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That's now the hope that we hang everything on, and that these stories are very, very

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visible to also people in charge who are not super concerned with open source.

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So I, it is my hope that this time it will be different.

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Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for the talk. Driven's off from a two-delft, and we work with

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surf, within the Netherlands, for early often. My question here is about how does the strategy work

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when even something like surf wants to say, birch the cloud, it's still depending on AWS,

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Azure, and to you, Delph, we are essentially an unwilling matter with Microsoft, and we keep

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having it more and more coming. What did you think of as the strategy within the government

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to say address that? Is there any specific strategy to move away from it? Or is it just allowed

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to say, okay, we'll see where it goes, because right now we are being pushed to Microsoft 365,

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like strongly. Yeah. So it's about cloud infrastructure and the strategy for it.

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Yeah. Well, it's not as, we're not as blusher about it as, oh, we'll see where it goes.

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There's definitely strategies you've been worked out for cloud alternatives, and especially European

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sovereign and Dutch national alternatives. But that will take time. That's a lot of infrastructure

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builds. There's an infamous story of a Dutch civil servant on the hoods who build a I tool kit

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and wanted it to, wanted to host it somewhere, and he looked up on AWS, how to host it,

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and it took like 19 minutes to have it deployed, and then he went to the Dutch data centers

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that we have, and after 10 months, and 10 times the amount of money, it still wasn't there.

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So that's sort of indicates what a journey was, we're all on.

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My name is, maybe. Oh, sorry. The mic is there. I'm sorry.

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Thank you. I have a different question about the policy about open source on this, and the

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on this part is very vague and still not really defined. They use it. I've experienced it myself

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that they use it for all kinds of reasons, mostly security. And now with Solfinity, and dehyde,

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which is an identity provider, basically, in the Netherlands, which is required,

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being sold to an American company, it seems to see why this whole process is there in the first place,

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and why there is no clear line on less and security, because everything just falls on the

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security basically. So, maybe explain a little bit about that process over there. And if there's

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any chance that that will be refined or better with this new government?

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Yeah. So, just to explain the example, Solfinity is a company that hosts our

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identity access provider for all the civilians in the Netherlands, and am I saying that correctly?

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Right? Yeah. I've just about Solfinity Parked, and it was sold to an American company,

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and that was all of our infrastructure. So that's sort of sort of proves, because dehyde,

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the identity and access provider, is open source for the most part.

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But the infrastructure was sold to an American company, and then that raises the question,

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okay, how did Solfinity are you, actually? That requires a strategy, and I see that the current

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government and the previous government has that in scope, but it still needs to be worked out.

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We try one last question. I'm very sorry for those who still raised their hand that we

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can't cover them very quick one. I'm very happy to see more open source of

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during the central government of the Netherlands, but I'm curious how would you also make

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this enthusiasm translate into the other forms of government or public sectors?

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So like municipalities, provinces, schools, hospitals, and so on, because you might

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have some enthusiasm in open source, but you need to also convince the others.

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It's funny that you mentioned that because the decentral governments, the municipalities, the

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provinces, are way more enthusiastic about this than us. And sometimes they're even further ahead,

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because they have a smaller scale to work with, and can easier deploy alternatives. So there's no

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convincing on our part. They're usually come to us to say like, okay, but when, when can we start?

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So it's great. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I'm sorry. That's good point.

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I'm sorry that we have to cut it here. Please show me for a big round of applause for Jena.

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And if you want to go to another session, and please try to leave

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you