WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:17.880 All right, folks, thanks for sticking it through Sunday afternoon, 335. 00:17.880 --> 00:23.920 This next talk, we're going to continue on the sustainability theme, and it's Ruth Seely, 00:23.920 --> 00:27.560 and her two panelists are going to talk about what it takes to sustain a project once 00:27.560 --> 00:37.560 it's successful. 00:37.560 --> 00:40.560 The camera doesn't hit, oh, now the camera here is very awesome. 00:40.560 --> 00:45.560 Hi, she said my name is Ruth Seely, I see many familiar faces, I may have met you in 00:45.560 --> 00:47.560 many open source places over the years. 00:47.560 --> 00:53.800 These days, I run an Ospo to a data analytics company called SAS, and I am President of 00:53.800 --> 00:57.040 the Apache Software Foundation and serve on the OSI board. 00:57.040 --> 01:01.400 I make my way into lots of communities, but somehow this is all led to me talking a lot 01:01.400 --> 01:05.200 in the last year to about the sustainability of the open source ecosystem, and in a lot 01:05.200 --> 01:06.200 of ways. 01:06.200 --> 01:10.200 I think often when we say the word sustainability, people hear money, we need more money 01:10.200 --> 01:14.240 that is about funding, but there's so many more aspects to it than that. 01:14.240 --> 01:18.440 So I've been thinking a lot about how we got here and the history of open source, and 01:18.440 --> 01:22.560 I'm going to give you the tiny bit, but if that's interesting to you, if you can Google 01:22.560 --> 01:27.920 my name, if you look up this panel and the future of open source, I go through the whole 01:27.920 --> 01:34.560 history of how we got here, but in short, when in the late 1900s, some guy in my dorms 01:34.560 --> 01:40.240 led me a Linux CD, the ecosystem was much smaller, it wasn't truly this ecosystem yet. 01:40.240 --> 01:44.720 It was some open source folks doing this thing that was useful to them, and we had a lot 01:44.720 --> 01:48.920 fewer needs in terms of funding, and we didn't have any mentors because we were still building 01:48.920 --> 01:55.800 the ship while we were sailing across the ocean, and this ocean turned into the whole planet, 01:55.800 --> 02:00.440 because now that little thing that we were just kind of doing because it was useful under 02:00.440 --> 02:05.040 pens every piece of software that runs everything that we all use and rely on every 02:05.040 --> 02:11.000 single day for everything, and that turned into so much more, and that's why sustainability 02:11.000 --> 02:13.880 means so much more than the funding, even though that's a part of it. 02:13.880 --> 02:19.560 One of my favorite news articles in open source history is, in January 1999, in the New 02:19.560 --> 02:26.120 York Times, this grammatically fantastically terrible headline that says, free access to a software 02:26.120 --> 02:28.440 code may come into its own in 1999. 02:28.440 --> 02:34.360 I would say our free access to a software code has finally come into its own, but along with 02:34.360 --> 02:39.320 that has come, a lot of regulatory movement, not just so here many of you are probably familiar 02:39.320 --> 02:43.720 to the CRA so much as happening in Europe, but around the world wherever you may be from, 02:43.720 --> 02:48.840 there's a lot happening with an eye on open source software, and a lot of that is because 02:48.840 --> 02:53.720 the security landscape has changed so much, because you don't generally threaten things 02:53.720 --> 02:58.040 that aren't interesting, that aren't used, and now we are the thing that everyone uses, 02:58.040 --> 03:02.360 and so security is a concern for the sustainability for the future. 03:02.360 --> 03:06.760 The funding is a concern because meeting the security requirements are going to cost money, 03:06.760 --> 03:11.880 and like I said, we didn't have mentors 20, 30 years ago, because we were all figuring out 03:11.880 --> 03:18.040 as we went along, and so now an interesting side effect of that is we also don't have mentors 03:18.040 --> 03:22.840 in mentoring, so that's the next thing that we all, those of us who are measuring things in the 03:22.840 --> 03:28.520 late 1900s have to figure out is how to be good role models to the next generation, to grow the 03:28.520 --> 03:34.280 community, so that it continues to be successful, and if you look up sustainability, like what 03:34.360 --> 03:39.960 is that really mean, you generally get some sort of definition about sustain, like keeping things 03:39.960 --> 03:44.840 as they are for the future, except that's not what we want either, I think we actually need a new term, 03:44.840 --> 03:49.640 because we want to continue the growth of the success of open source software into something 03:49.640 --> 03:55.080 even bigger than it's what it's become, so I will stop there and let my two friends who are experts 03:55.080 --> 04:00.360 in bits of this thing that I'm talking about, introduce themselves and explain what sustainability 04:00.360 --> 04:05.640 means to you and your part of the open source ecosystem. Hello everyone, I am Richard Littauer, 04:05.640 --> 04:10.920 hi, I'm a PhD student in New Zealand, I also run a network of community open source 04:10.920 --> 04:16.680 program offices, sorry, a community of university open source program offices, so academic open source 04:16.680 --> 04:21.720 called Curious and for the past eight years I'm running a podcast called Sustain open source software 04:21.720 --> 04:26.200 about the sustainability of open source software, so we've had like 400 episodes about this, 04:26.200 --> 04:30.040 and I have no idea what it means and I hate the word sustainability. So 04:30.200 --> 04:35.560 awkward, I also ran known last year, don't do that if you live in New Zealand, it's really bad 04:35.560 --> 04:42.200 time zones, so what does sustainability mean to me? It's a completely meaningless word, it's 04:42.200 --> 04:49.880 it's actually like a bad word, keeping things going doesn't talk about the fact that most of our 04:49.880 --> 04:53.880 communities are broken in really important ways, they're either broken because of funding is 04:53.880 --> 04:58.600 wrong or the broken because other people are trying to extract value out of them or because we're 04:58.600 --> 05:02.600 burning out our maintainers, so I really don't like the word sustainability at all because every 05:02.600 --> 05:07.320 single project can get better and I'd rather have like growth or something else. I also run a project 05:07.320 --> 05:12.360 or I'm part of the organizer for Open Sustain Technology, which is the largest database of 05:12.360 --> 05:17.240 sustainable projects for the climate crisis and that's like the other word for sustainability, 05:17.240 --> 05:20.200 right, like that's keep environmental sustainability going and the fact that those two terms 05:20.200 --> 05:24.840 bleed over all the time makes the word even worse, so when I hear the word sustainability when you 05:24.840 --> 05:29.880 ask me about the panel, I kind of cried a bit and I'm still working on that. Richard 05:29.880 --> 05:34.040 skips the part where he's also linguistically brilliant and now that I know he hates the word 05:34.040 --> 05:40.520 too, I'm going to depend on him to come up with a better one. linguistically, I ain't brilliant, 05:40.520 --> 05:45.960 so I'm timidated now, so my name is Bob Callaway, I've been an open source contributor for 05:45.960 --> 05:51.320 going on two decades and you referring to things as the late 1900s is quite disturbing to me, 05:51.320 --> 05:55.320 but I guess you're accurate there. In addition to being a contributor for a couple of decades, 05:56.440 --> 06:03.400 my current role is running open source security at Google, which we recognized several years ago 06:04.360 --> 06:08.040 quite before the log for shell incident, but that certainly helped to generate some 06:09.160 --> 06:13.880 positive velocity on the problem at hand was that Google needed to do more to help 06:14.440 --> 06:18.200 address some of the shortcomings that are happening in upstream, like there's tons of work to do, 06:18.200 --> 06:23.000 right, and we wanted to do our part, so that represents an engineering team of 60 folks who can 06:23.000 --> 06:27.720 contribute upstream, try to work on building systems and some solutions to these problems. 06:27.720 --> 06:31.480 It's not meant to be a cure all and all for everything that else open source, but we want to do 06:31.480 --> 06:36.200 our part. In addition to that, I'm also a board member of a couple of different foundations, one of 06:37.080 --> 06:43.080 them is the Open SSF, which is the Open Source Security Foundation, which is a group of projects, 06:43.160 --> 06:48.520 working groups and folks, which have like-minded interest in how do we make open source more secure? 06:49.720 --> 06:53.560 Also need to make open source continue to be available, which is a procurement of security, 06:53.560 --> 06:57.080 which is if it doesn't exist anymore, that's an existential risk to all of us, to all the critical 06:57.080 --> 07:01.000 infrastructure that you mentioned as well. The other thing that I'm a board member of is something 07:01.000 --> 07:07.720 called the Alpha Omega Project. This is a directed fund where Google Microsoft, Amazon, and city 07:07.800 --> 07:13.720 have all donated multi-million dollars to help fund durable improvements in various upstream 07:13.720 --> 07:18.280 ecosystems. So many of the great improvements that we've seen at the Python Foundation, 07:18.280 --> 07:22.840 the Apache Foundation, other places, the people that have had the time and energy to focus on 07:22.840 --> 07:27.640 solving those problems in the foundations have actually been funded through the Alpha Omega Project. 07:27.640 --> 07:32.440 And again, funding isn't everything. It's certainly a part of the dimension of how do we get 07:32.440 --> 07:37.320 things to be sustainable. I would agree that like I don't know that we want to perpetuate the status 07:37.320 --> 07:42.440 quo when we talk about sustainability, but I think of it as like, do we have positive 07:42.440 --> 07:47.320 forward momentum that we can sustain? So that's what really how I think about using the word. 07:47.320 --> 07:51.800 It's like, do we have that positive velocity? Are things getting better on multiple dimensions? 07:51.800 --> 07:56.920 Not, are we perpetuating patterns that lead to burnout, lead to maintainers walking the way, 07:56.920 --> 08:00.600 cause that existential risk? How do we turn the curve and then make sure that we don't just 08:00.600 --> 08:04.200 dip down in the, you know, which is great again. You can throw money at the problem, 08:04.680 --> 08:10.360 macroeconomic, macroeconomic event can happen, that can disrupt things. So we really are thinking 08:10.360 --> 08:17.000 about how do we make step changes and things which go everywhere from business models to expectations, 08:17.000 --> 08:22.440 being very clear around like open-source licenses are great. They talk about what the expectations 08:22.440 --> 08:27.720 should be and must be, but also as we talk about kind of the responsibility of those who are 08:27.720 --> 08:32.600 consuming in the light of regulation and many other things, we have to be evolving. How do we want 08:33.560 --> 08:38.600 maintainers, foundations to all step up, any evolve they're thinking in these models? 08:38.600 --> 08:42.760 Because again, open sources are a great place. We all want to continue in certain facets, but we 08:42.760 --> 08:45.480 things have to change in order for things to continue to be healthy. 08:45.480 --> 08:51.960 The Bob started to pre-insure my next question. Thanks, good job. So historically, all of these 08:51.960 --> 08:57.480 open source foundations as they exploded because so in 1998, February 1998 was when the 08:57.480 --> 09:02.040 term open source was coined. The OSI existed by the end of February. The ASF was incorporated 09:02.040 --> 09:06.600 in March and now I couldn't even begin to guess how many open source foundations there are. 09:06.600 --> 09:11.080 But they all tended to operate in these silos, doing whatever the thing that they had formed 09:11.080 --> 09:16.280 around was. And one of the most fantastic, accidental side effects of the CRA, I think, is that 09:16.280 --> 09:20.760 they've all started working together in new ways, around security problems, compliance problems, 09:20.760 --> 09:25.240 funding problems, and ways that we've never seen before. And since you've both been involved 09:25.320 --> 09:29.960 in various organizations over the years, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how we can strengthen 09:29.960 --> 09:33.640 those relationships even further and build on that collaboration. 09:36.280 --> 09:39.400 So the first thing is you mentioned organizations and foundations. Those are different things. 09:40.120 --> 09:44.200 When I think of foundations, I often think of five of one C3s, five of one C6s, which are a 09:44.200 --> 09:48.600 tax-go to the US. All of us, for some reason, are from North Carolina or have connections there, 09:48.600 --> 09:53.320 really weird. That hadn't been said, I really don't like my whole country. So the 09:53.880 --> 09:58.920 there are foundations that are outside the states and there are foundations here. If you're 09:58.920 --> 10:04.280 up that to deal with the CRA, as you just mentioned, but most of the American software foundations 10:04.280 --> 10:09.640 haven't had to deal with the CRA or the EU. As far as I know, there's a few people who are 10:09.640 --> 10:13.640 working in those foundations, people like Simon Thips, et cetera, who are like, hey, we have to 10:13.640 --> 10:17.400 understand the legal ramifications what we're doing, but the majority of open source foundations 10:17.400 --> 10:23.320 are organizations in the US can't fund the manpower to deal with legal geopolitical issues 10:23.320 --> 10:27.320 across the division, which is okay. I mean, it's a different thing. Thank you. 10:29.480 --> 10:33.560 But when you talk about how do we band together, what I think we need to have is better 10:33.560 --> 10:37.080 communicating between foundations in this fears where they actually have the ability to have 10:37.080 --> 10:42.440 influence and power. For Europe, I think that means a better understanding of what foundations are in 10:42.440 --> 10:46.520 Europe. There's a really interesting mailing list called the Floss Foundation's mailing list that I'm 10:46.520 --> 10:51.480 not on, but it's really useful for talking between foundations. And that's the best. And 10:51.480 --> 10:55.160 oftentimes, I've heard that if you have a question, you just ask that mailing list and they'll 10:55.160 --> 11:01.080 answer it for you. I think we need more of those. And I also think we need more funding to go to 11:01.080 --> 11:05.880 things like Floss Dem, where we all meet each other and actually have the ability to say after 11:05.880 --> 11:09.880 two or three beers or non beers if you're non alcoholic, hey, I'm really scared about this other 11:09.880 --> 11:14.680 thing and I'm what what do I do about it? Because that's honestly kind of how most foundations 11:14.680 --> 11:19.000 work, there's someone who asks that question and someone helps out. So that's what I look forward to 11:19.880 --> 11:23.560 in a much larger world where all of a sudden there are politicians asking those questions of us. 11:24.360 --> 11:28.440 We need to make sure that we have more people who are doing law in open source because there's 11:28.440 --> 11:33.080 very few open source lawyers, which is super, super awkward. And I'm really tired of emailing the 11:33.080 --> 11:40.120 one lawyer I have. In fact, my lawyer did say, please stop emailing me on sub-short notice. So it's great, 11:40.120 --> 11:44.200 but we need more people to actually go into that field. If you're a young person and you want to 11:44.200 --> 11:49.800 have a good paycheck in the future, please go do an open source law degree. Anyway, that's my thought. 11:51.320 --> 11:56.520 I think I would plus one year your notion of how do we get people to not only continue to have 11:56.520 --> 12:01.480 the right conversations. I think the other big thing is like, how do we create space for people to 12:01.480 --> 12:08.440 focus? And because it's a very fragmented political landscape, it's a very fragmented geopolitical 12:08.520 --> 12:16.440 dynamic. However, many of, and so it gets a little context. So one of the areas that we've 12:16.440 --> 12:20.440 facilitated kind of some of this information sharing was a really around how do the various package 12:20.440 --> 12:25.640 managers address the security threats that they're seeing? And you start to look at it. Like, 12:25.640 --> 12:31.240 how are we all handling multi-factor authentication? And you start to go around the room and people 12:31.240 --> 12:38.280 realize, well, when we turned it on at the foundation X, we were inundated by password reset requests. 12:38.600 --> 12:42.040 Because people were going back and they were screwing up, you know, associated in their UBK, 12:42.040 --> 12:45.240 we were drowning, and you know, volunteers were really struggling with that. So if you're going to 12:45.240 --> 12:49.240 do it, roll it out in this way, and people started running along and going, okay, cool. We're all 12:49.240 --> 12:55.320 actually going to go down a likely quite similar road map in adding security capabilities to the 12:55.320 --> 13:00.440 registries. We can learn from each other, not always take the exact same technical approach, 13:00.440 --> 13:05.400 just in the different language nuance. But we can really learn around what was the feedback? 13:05.480 --> 13:11.400 How can we evolve quicker? Can we skip making the same mistakes and move faster? And since we 13:11.400 --> 13:15.320 created that securing, I think we're called the securing software repositories working group. 13:15.880 --> 13:20.200 We've had that running now for about two years. We've agreed on kind of different kind of 13:20.200 --> 13:25.560 ladders for, we all kind of say level one, mean you do the following thing, level two, mean you do 13:25.560 --> 13:30.520 the following things. And it's really just to help to motivate this is where we are on the journey. 13:30.520 --> 13:36.040 We want to continue to move forward. If you give us money or if you come to contribute, 13:36.040 --> 13:40.440 these are the areas that kind of continue to move us in a good direction where we can all rally 13:40.440 --> 13:45.320 to a cause. That has been really helpful for the various foundations and various registry 13:45.320 --> 13:50.360 operators to not only articulate what good looks like, which gets people interested to get 13:50.360 --> 13:55.560 other checkbooks. But it also just makes that there be an actual sub community of people that are 13:55.560 --> 14:02.360 dealing with like-minded problems. When a fishing attack happens on crates.io, you can quickly jump 14:02.360 --> 14:07.560 into a various chat rooms and say, hey, is anybody else dealt with this? Does anybody also have a 14:07.560 --> 14:12.920 contact at this DNS provider to help figure out how do we take down this fishing domain? And within 14:12.920 --> 14:17.560 a matter of minutes, we've helped to create that network effect. So whether it's the mailing list that 14:17.560 --> 14:22.440 you mentioned, we're creating that shared context and the ability for people to focus on the problems. 14:22.520 --> 14:26.760 And I think that's been- on the least on the security domain has been super influential over 14:26.760 --> 14:32.280 the past couple of years. So last one more question and answer myself before we take questions. 14:32.280 --> 14:37.720 And the question is what you feel like is the one thing in this room of people who are interested 14:37.720 --> 14:41.000 enough in open source community to come to the community of the room and want to know about 14:41.000 --> 14:45.160 sustainability. What's the one thing we can ask each of these? How are many people you are to go 14:45.160 --> 14:50.840 do to ensure the sustainability of the ecosystem? And for me, it's to go to be the mentors, 14:50.840 --> 14:55.480 to go find someone, preferably someone to bring into the ecosystem. Raise your hand if you're 14:55.480 --> 14:59.720 in open source because someone said, hey, let me tell you about the cool thing that I do and you can 14:59.720 --> 15:04.440 come do it too. Yeah, that's at least half of you. That's how you got here. So be that person 15:04.440 --> 15:13.720 for someone else and grow our community. Go to therapy. No, like really, like the number one 15:13.720 --> 15:18.440 thing you can do to help your open source community is to spend time figuring out how to deal with 15:18.440 --> 15:24.200 your own emotions. This is the number one thing that people fail to do. So that that I know an 15:24.200 --> 15:31.320 amazing, amazing maintainer Gina Halska, who works on OctoPrint. She's German. She's awesome. 15:31.320 --> 15:37.080 She has a giant punching bag in her office. She'll answer an issue and then go punch the crap 15:37.080 --> 15:42.200 out of a bag for five minutes. And that's how she sustains her momentum, right? It's being 15:42.200 --> 15:46.440 able to say, I'm not going to be affected by this and also acknowledging I'm a human and that 15:46.520 --> 15:51.080 person was really annoying and I don't want to take it out on them. And so a lot of beings 15:51.080 --> 15:56.120 say, I said that because that's the thing I never hear at open source conferences. But like really 15:56.120 --> 16:00.200 we're all humans and we suck at being human and we're all trying to learn how to do it better 16:01.240 --> 16:06.360 and fixing yourself is probably the easiest way to fix open source. That's unconventional answer. 16:07.080 --> 16:11.800 I guess two things to mind, one is maybe a bit of a different variant of what you said, which is 16:12.600 --> 16:19.080 don't be afraid to articulate boundaries. It's okay to say, I'm not willing to take contributions. 16:19.080 --> 16:26.680 It's okay to say, I'm not willing to be badgered by enterprise companies to go have X, Y and Z outcome 16:26.680 --> 16:31.240 happen. It's okay to draw a line or what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do. 16:31.960 --> 16:38.120 But oftentimes when you leave that space open and open to interpretation, folks will get 16:38.120 --> 16:41.720 taken advantage of. And I think that's something we all could potentially do better at. 16:42.440 --> 16:48.520 The other dimension to this is I think we're obviously in a space where the favorite two-letter 16:48.520 --> 16:53.720 term that's probably on everybody's mind at some level that rhymes with Schmei. 16:56.280 --> 17:01.240 Things are going to change through the better for the worse who knows, right? It's up to 17:01.240 --> 17:06.600 personal interpretation. I think embracing that change being honest about how we feel about it, 17:06.680 --> 17:11.160 being honest about what we like about the new model, what we don't like about the new model. 17:11.160 --> 17:16.520 I think over the next couple of years, what it means to be an open source project is likely to 17:16.520 --> 17:23.080 evolve. We can either control that or we can dig our heads in the sand. And I think really 17:23.080 --> 17:26.920 where open source is really shine is when we get, we look at a shared problem together. 17:27.480 --> 17:31.400 For honest, we're open, we're transparent while we're coming from. That's what has made it so 17:31.400 --> 17:36.520 awesome. There's a lot to look in the future and say, hey, we're going to have unprecedented 17:36.520 --> 17:44.120 capabilities and we'll be able to do many things faster. Maybe better. I don't know about cheaper, 17:44.120 --> 17:51.000 but we'll see. But on the flip side, there is an existential risk to, you know, a bifurcation 17:51.000 --> 17:54.520 in what we think about as open source today versus what it's going to be in the future. 17:54.520 --> 17:59.400 And so just, I guess my thought is just embrace the change. What's make it what we wanted to be 18:00.760 --> 18:06.280 if we pull back, I don't know, it leads me into a place where I'm like, oh man, I don't know 18:06.280 --> 18:12.360 that's not a super positive mental space to be in. But I do think the more that we get out of it, 18:12.360 --> 18:16.680 we defy our boundaries, we say what we want to do, how we want to interact with what we want 18:16.680 --> 18:21.720 in terms of community norms continuing those conversations. That's a step in the right direction. 18:23.320 --> 18:27.320 Can I answer the question again? Well, I mean, I had a new answer to you, so go ahead. 18:28.680 --> 18:33.560 It's not all about the individual. Please organize and fight fascism. It is the biggest threat to 18:33.560 --> 18:37.480 open source. So, do whatever you can. Join your local leftist communities, join your local 18:37.480 --> 18:41.480 tech unions. You don't have a tech union. Make a tech union. If you don't know your neighbors, 18:41.480 --> 18:46.520 get to know your neighbors. And every single line of code you write is political. 18:47.720 --> 18:53.000 Know that. And know that the entire idea of open source depends upon licensing, which is a legal 18:53.000 --> 18:59.640 thing. Right? It's not like random. These are laws. So think about under what jurisdictions you're 18:59.720 --> 19:05.720 writing your code and how you can fight fascism in your own country or abroad. It's not just 19:05.720 --> 19:10.680 about you. It's also about the systems we live in. Thanks. Thank you both. We got some at all things 19:10.680 --> 19:15.400 open. And even when we start out, this is not about money. It's somehow always ends up about money 19:15.400 --> 19:19.800 anyway. So, high five, both of you. I think we do have time for like one question. You go out of 19:19.800 --> 19:25.000 micron. Somebody else has to stand there for the people on the camera. If I had a dollar for 19:25.000 --> 19:28.600 everybody I've heard this week, apologize for being American on stage. We could fund open source 19:28.600 --> 19:38.040 for the next 30 years. Yeah. If we're talking sustainability of the community, is it very important 19:38.040 --> 19:47.880 to try to get the meon like get education involved, try to introduce open source software in schools 19:47.880 --> 19:57.640 and such? Actually, one of the things I did when I worked at Red Hat for a long time was we 19:57.640 --> 20:02.760 help start an open source minor at the Rochester Institute of Technology. And so definitely 20:02.760 --> 20:06.360 at least in the US we're seeing a lot more programs at the University of level of focused on open 20:06.360 --> 20:10.760 source. And I think that's where we get a lot of contributors from. But if that is an audience 20:10.760 --> 20:16.760 that is interesting to you in your community build structures for them because... We have a mic already. 20:16.760 --> 20:22.200 It cut out when I was coming back to other things. Build structures for them because university 20:22.200 --> 20:26.520 students come and go very quickly. And so you will find that you have someone drop in, pay attention 20:26.600 --> 20:30.680 for six months, maybe two years. And then they wonder how to get a job. So build structures 20:30.680 --> 20:41.960 that keep them in the community. So since we don't actually have a session about this, I think 20:41.960 --> 20:51.000 we're going to ask. There are a lot of sessions this weekend about the impact of AI on contributors 20:51.000 --> 20:57.560 and about a contributor burnout in software sustainability. What are your thoughts on contributor 20:57.560 --> 21:04.600 less projects, projects that are completely operating it and managed by AI without contributors? 21:04.600 --> 21:10.520 And that as a path towards sustainability. 21:11.160 --> 21:21.240 Yeah, I'm sorry. Sorry. Yeah, it is partially got to go. I guess my personal thought is I think we 21:21.240 --> 21:27.720 will see that in some extent. I think the you're going to see varying hybrids of it to work 21:27.720 --> 21:32.680 maybe, you know, the actual maintainers are setting the road map at the bulk of the actual 21:32.680 --> 21:37.400 code is delivered by an agent. I think you're going to see what we see today where you have an 21:37.400 --> 21:42.680 influx of, you know, slop. I think you'll see high quality vulnerable. It's coming from other 21:42.680 --> 21:47.880 entities and you'll see certain communities embrace the technology as a tool. Others will use it 21:47.880 --> 21:53.880 as a default operating model. There's obviously, you know, some level of pros and cons there. 21:54.680 --> 21:58.440 Again, I think we need to experiment. I think we need to be honest about where it works, where it doesn't 21:58.440 --> 22:06.760 work. There's certainly a dimension to it that means the attachment that we have emotionally to 22:06.760 --> 22:12.440 code as being an artistic output seems to be something that's going to change in some dimension. 22:13.240 --> 22:18.280 It's scary, but embracing the medium and saying, you know, how could we use this for good? I think 22:18.280 --> 22:23.160 it's something I would encourage. But yeah, it's going to fundamentally change it. But I think 22:23.160 --> 22:27.640 seeing a hybrid of models is we can already kind of see this emerging. I think we need to continue 22:27.640 --> 22:31.320 to share about openly. Where is that working? Where is it now working? And go forward from there. 22:32.280 --> 22:37.800 We're super duper out of the town. Oh, one could look up the Luddite movement. That's all I'm 22:37.800 --> 22:48.840 going to say for that one. And where was the one more? Yeah. All right. Oh. Yeah. When we talk about 22:48.840 --> 22:55.800 sustainability, we always talk about money, places and everything. But what is being done with our 22:55.800 --> 23:04.040 education system? We're not teaching people that failure is not a big divs and a problem. 23:04.040 --> 23:10.120 We're building new languages because we couldn't teach their languages. We're talking about AI 23:10.920 --> 23:16.680 and systems engineers, they have no idea what a vector actually is in practice. And they've been 23:16.680 --> 23:23.400 for five years in college. So what we're doing with people that actually is not money, that's 23:24.280 --> 23:28.920 the open source. It's not the code that's the thing they open source. If there's no 23:28.920 --> 23:34.200 someone there to build that code to understand that code and to manage or not people, what is 23:34.200 --> 23:38.440 going to do with the future? So the education problem is a whole other session that we definitely 23:38.440 --> 23:44.440 don't have time for. But I will tell you, I have a 16 year old in the US who is in a computer programming 23:44.440 --> 23:49.240 program where his teacher is saying, just five code, it's fine. So let me know where that's 23:49.240 --> 23:52.760 going to end up in 10 years when that's how all of our developers have been trained is just five 23:52.760 --> 23:56.840 code. But there actually isn't a adjacent problem. I think, this really is a whole other session. 23:56.840 --> 24:02.840 I don't have time for which is that the education system, at least in the US, even well before 24:02.840 --> 24:09.480 we get to the writing code part, tanked in the pandemic. If you look at what has happened to the 24:09.480 --> 24:14.040 math and reading scores and the competency level of students now compared to five years ago, 24:14.680 --> 24:22.200 you would be a poll that it is even possible to have dropped like a rock. So if you have, so 56% 24:22.200 --> 24:27.400 of Americans can't read at the level of an 11 year old, a sixth grader if you're American. 56% 24:27.400 --> 24:32.040 of Americans cannot read at a sixth grade level. And it's getting worse. So if that's the state of 24:32.040 --> 24:37.080 the education system, we got a big problem before we even start to teach them to code or be a part of 24:37.080 --> 24:39.080 a community.