WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:08.960 I'll come back to the funding open source track here. 00:08.960 --> 00:14.360 We are going to listen to another talk, and this time my gift is going to tell us that 00:14.360 --> 00:18.680 to get money for your open source project, it would be awesome if you have paying clients. 00:18.680 --> 00:26.600 I know it's a talk, but I don't want to break any of these things, but yes, so I might 00:26.600 --> 00:27.600 get there. 00:27.600 --> 00:28.600 Can you give me all right? 00:28.600 --> 00:29.600 I'm not sure if you can. 00:29.600 --> 00:43.880 No, we do something, I don't want you to walk, okay, excellent, that sounds a lot better. 00:43.880 --> 00:46.000 So my name is Mike Kifford. 00:46.000 --> 00:50.160 I'm the open source and standards of practice lead at civic actions. 00:50.160 --> 00:54.640 We're an American company, but I'm a Canadian, I'm a based in Ottawa, Canada, and I've 00:54.640 --> 00:59.440 been dealing with procurement, particularly with procurement and government for Lisa Decaid, trying 00:59.440 --> 01:04.040 to look at how different governments go and procure technology. 01:04.040 --> 01:10.920 I'm also a drip-al-core accessibility maintainer and a WC3 embedded experts on a bunch of issues. 01:10.920 --> 01:21.160 So we want to go ahead and look at how we're shifting things from the preassets to actually 01:21.160 --> 01:26.360 building them as living resources, let's say also for open collective, I am a supportive 01:26.360 --> 01:27.360 open collective. 01:27.360 --> 01:30.560 Everyone should be a supportive open collective, there's so many dependable tools out there 01:30.560 --> 01:34.440 that we use, we should be supporting each other and open collective is an amazing way to 01:34.440 --> 01:35.440 do it. 01:35.440 --> 01:42.600 I'm also in a big fan of the Sarmatech Fund and the Sarmatech Agency and the European 01:42.600 --> 01:48.240 Sarmatech Foundation, in fact, I've involved in creating Wikipedia pages for all of them. 01:48.240 --> 01:55.400 So definitely feel like there's amazing stuff that can be done here with that stage. 01:55.400 --> 01:58.680 The scale of the problems, like we do need to follow the money, we should, this should 01:58.680 --> 02:03.200 be a standing-room only event because the money is so important, we need to be thinking 02:03.200 --> 02:08.240 about where do we get the money from, where does it go, how do we support the maintainers, 02:08.240 --> 02:14.240 how do we support the communities that there's a more thriving, more vibrant ecosystem. 02:14.240 --> 02:21.520 Anyways, onto the presentation. 02:21.840 --> 02:38.480 Oops, that didn't work, we're on the side and, hey, so open sources had a charity model in 02:38.480 --> 02:41.280 the past and this is a problem. 02:41.280 --> 02:48.120 We've been relying on, in many cases, donations of time, it's led to burnouts, a lot of 02:48.120 --> 02:52.720 frustration, we've had a lot of underfunded resources, there's a great deal of technical 02:52.720 --> 03:02.000 debt in our communities and I think that the main critique I have is of initiatives like 03:02.000 --> 03:08.760 the Sarmatech Fund and in fact, open collective is that these, these are really useful, 03:08.760 --> 03:12.760 but they don't address the scale of the problem. 03:12.760 --> 03:18.040 And to look, you need to go up and understand the problem, you need to look upstream. 03:18.040 --> 03:24.680 So donations don't scale, we need to be able to think about how to take the problems 03:24.680 --> 03:34.680 we're facing and move them up so that we have a capacity to actually deal with, I mean, 03:34.680 --> 03:41.080 open source is such a huge part of our technical ecosystem and we're often, there's 03:41.080 --> 03:48.400 the dependency cartoon from XKCD that the Sarmatech Fund folks have, like, that is a reality 03:48.400 --> 03:53.080 on so many fronts, it's not just that one peg. 03:53.080 --> 03:58.760 We need infrastructure that's going to be ongoing and is funded by regular investments 03:58.760 --> 04:04.400 over time and we cannot rely on there being, you have one time projects or one time 04:04.400 --> 04:10.760 grants we need to be thinking about open source and these technologies as infrastructure. 04:10.760 --> 04:15.400 So this has also been something that's, that's not new, this is something that was said yesterday 04:15.400 --> 04:20.840 it opened for a Europe was also said at the, the Drupal for Gav conference the day before, 04:20.840 --> 04:24.840 it's been said a bunch of different times but I'm here to just to emphasize that this is 04:24.840 --> 04:29.880 this is a conceptual framing that we need to shift and it's a cultural change in our funders 04:29.880 --> 04:34.680 because that's government, it's big business, it's small business, it's, it's conceptually 04:34.680 --> 04:39.440 we need to move it from your buying a product to how are you buying the infrastructure 04:39.440 --> 04:47.520 that is going to run your digital service. So yeah, we've, we've been looking at this 04:47.520 --> 04:54.680 in terms of, of coffee money in many ways, individual user donations to projects are great. 04:54.680 --> 05:00.440 So often the time in, certainly in the Drupal community, we tend to go off and fund 05:00.440 --> 05:05.680 raise within the community, which is great but we don't do a good enough job, fund rise 05:05.680 --> 05:10.800 like preaching to the choir is useful and that's largely what we're doing here but we need 05:10.800 --> 05:15.600 to turn outside to look at who are the people who are using our services, which is everyone, right? 05:16.720 --> 05:20.320 We need to be able to say how do we get that funding outside of the open source 05:21.040 --> 05:27.520 the converted population into everyone else? How do we move beyond pledges, again the open source 05:27.520 --> 05:31.840 pledges are great? I love that initiative, there's useful to go off and get companies to go 05:31.920 --> 05:36.080 off and to make a commitment to a certain percentage of their profits to go to funding these 05:36.080 --> 05:41.200 projects, that is a great individual initiative but it's not long term and it's something 05:41.200 --> 05:46.160 that can be taken away if there is a shift in the wins and as we've seen in the past year 05:46.880 --> 05:52.960 when one single funder decides to go off and shift their funding from, from supporting a lot 05:52.960 --> 05:58.240 of different projects and being like a lot of the open source projects that we use like signal 05:58.240 --> 06:02.960 or having trouble because one of the funders that they had is no longer there so we need to be 06:02.960 --> 06:09.840 thinking about how we diversify or income and how we try and find ways to support the technology 06:09.840 --> 06:17.200 that we use and yeah the procurement is huge like I will drill in on us a bit but you know 06:17.200 --> 06:22.480 government procurement I mean $15 million contracts that's not unusual for a lot of government 06:22.480 --> 06:28.240 procurement it's not for every government but it's like that's what we do is $15 million 06:28.240 --> 06:34.400 like how much how many government websites run Drupal for instance and as a Drupal core 06:34.400 --> 06:40.880 accessibility maintainer I've watched the contributions that have come into Drupal and even those 06:40.880 --> 06:46.160 so many governments require Drupal for their infrastructure they're not contributing upstream they're 06:46.160 --> 06:50.800 not paying for the organizations to make Drupal accessible even though it's a requirement of the 06:50.800 --> 06:55.840 web accessibility directive or section five or eight or whatever there's very few that are doing 06:55.840 --> 07:04.640 this as an intentional part of their their strategy and yeah we need to move from from from 07:04.640 --> 07:13.200 the idea of buying a buying a product to buy a process and we're trying to go off and and move 07:13.200 --> 07:18.320 so that we we're we're looking strategically at government procurement because it's such an 07:18.320 --> 07:24.320 important part of the strategic process how do we try to make sure that inner or public 07:24.320 --> 07:29.280 procurement that we're we're finding ways to favor open source projects and the we're 07:29.280 --> 07:40.080 favoring contributing back upstream in the process so technically we we you know 97% of the 07:40.080 --> 07:47.840 audited code bases of black it's a black deck it's the OSSRA report 97% of audited 07:47.840 --> 07:53.920 could bases contain open source projects so there are in this one audited set of studies at 07:53.920 --> 08:00.080 the large set of software 3% of software that was audited did not include some level of open 08:00.080 --> 08:07.280 source so in many ways we've won right and and the Drupal sovereign tech folks and now I learned 08:07.280 --> 08:14.000 about this first from them but we've won so but we've won battle but perhaps we're losing the war 08:14.000 --> 08:19.120 because we're not looking at how do we fund this infrastructure how do we try and ensure that it's 08:19.120 --> 08:24.080 part of the culture it's part of the technology because everyone uses open source but it's not 08:24.080 --> 08:29.920 part of how we think and work together collectively as a as a movement as a social movement 08:30.880 --> 08:35.840 strings economic political force we we are that we just haven't organized that way 08:37.680 --> 08:44.160 so and premise because the business incentives are not aligned you know still in terms of 08:44.160 --> 08:50.240 government contracting another contracting often it's the lowest price that wins and lowest price 08:50.240 --> 08:56.480 what gets cut the contributions the quality control like there's so much that is lost if you're 08:56.480 --> 09:02.640 looking at bid the bidding process you're just looking at the lowest bid so how do we ship that so 09:02.640 --> 09:10.320 that that the that the largest buyers in in every economy which is the government is trying to go 09:10.320 --> 09:16.880 often and incentivize open source at every stack because if the federal government goes off and 09:16.880 --> 09:22.320 provides funding for it the the the the municipalities and the states and and provincial 09:22.320 --> 09:26.560 governments also benefit from that as well and they should all be finding ways to contribute to 09:26.560 --> 09:30.960 the tools that they use and collaborate because it helps citizens everywhere to have that approach 09:32.800 --> 09:36.960 so yeah I mean game the southern tech front is amazing they've done amazing work in public city 09:36.960 --> 09:41.680 and and awareness raising and they've raised a lot of money and helped a lot of projects like 09:41.680 --> 09:49.360 Drupal like the Jeff foundation like so many other projects you know but but but it's small 09:50.400 --> 09:54.720 you look at the size of European the the procurement of the European Union and it is 09:55.440 --> 09:59.120 buying digital products and services in the European Union like the government is it's hundreds of 09:59.120 --> 10:04.080 billions dollars a year you know kind of one study it's just hard to get numbers for this but 10:04.080 --> 10:09.120 one study suggested that the gov tech marketing general globally is at least 600 billion a year 10:09.840 --> 10:18.720 it's probably bigger than that and if 97% of that 600 billion value is is leveraging open source 10:18.720 --> 10:23.520 in order to deliver the services that's a lot of money that we should that should be on the table 10:23.520 --> 10:29.280 for us to look at some portion of that and some portion of 600 billion dollars a year is a lot of money 10:31.760 --> 10:38.720 and oops I get that before okay so yeah try to go from put this in terms of minos versus 10:38.720 --> 10:44.880 whales versus pods of whales in terms of the size of the the infrastructure here and 10:45.920 --> 10:49.840 hopefully it's it's the little bubbles I randomly created to make this slide more visually 10:49.840 --> 10:58.880 interesting or not distracting in the presentation so we can make a pivot to making to operational 10:58.880 --> 11:04.800 maintenance how do we make sure that we're that that we're I mean we want to have central funding 11:04.800 --> 11:10.320 but we have to realize that central funding is fragile we need robust strategies we need to have 11:10.320 --> 11:14.880 it built into the infrastructure where we're thinking about this so so yeah we want more grants 11:14.880 --> 11:22.160 we want more sponsorships we want more scholarships absolutely but but this is a tricky political time 11:22.160 --> 11:29.280 so we can't rely on that and if we can build it the the the build stuff into the infrastructure 11:29.280 --> 11:35.920 so that the the change that there's thousands of contracts that all have open source built into 11:35.920 --> 11:41.360 the millions of contracts that have open source built into them then we can we we will be an under a 11:41.360 --> 11:48.000 lot less risk and we will be less exacting like a hands out don't look at hands out 11:49.440 --> 11:54.720 initiative for charity handout we don't want charity handouts we're driving the infrastructure 11:54.720 --> 11:59.680 of the internet and of the digital world that we're trying to build together so we should be acting 11:59.680 --> 12:06.800 that way um so one of the the discussions have had in the past is looking at how how we need to 12:06.800 --> 12:13.600 be able to move from a a capex to opx so essentially how do we transition from a a process where 12:13.600 --> 12:20.560 you're you're you're looking um the on individual projects to to looking at at the lifespan 12:20.560 --> 12:23.920 of the project like if you're looking at bridges like yeah there's an initial cost to install a 12:24.800 --> 12:29.520 bridge but then there's ongoing cost to maintain that bridge and you know governments know how to 12:29.520 --> 12:33.920 deal with infrastructure projects and to pay for infrastructure projects if they're framed that way 12:33.920 --> 12:38.640 if it's allocating the budget there's an anticipation of how to go out and structure and organize that 12:39.840 --> 12:45.360 we can be thinking about how to to in our contracts mandate option contributions 12:46.080 --> 12:51.600 maybe it won't be 20% per year or per contract maybe it will be like what what can we push for 12:51.600 --> 12:56.720 what should we be asking for as the people that are delivering the digital worlds that that's 12:56.720 --> 13:08.720 our our governments and our citizens are are demanding so yeah the open standards and open 13:08.720 --> 13:15.280 source our free open standards prevents lock-in lock-in is a huge cost it's a really useful 13:15.360 --> 13:20.720 important piece of the puzzle open standards it enables reuse and for an auditing as well 13:22.560 --> 13:27.120 I think governance is often overlooked as well the whole process of like how do we make decisions 13:28.000 --> 13:34.720 the dribble communities really quite unusual and that we have multiple different companies and 13:34.720 --> 13:39.200 individuals who are involved in shaping the direction of dribble community we have a model that a lot 13:39.200 --> 13:42.480 of other people are looking at because there's not one company that's involved in creating the 13:42.480 --> 13:48.560 structure of that governance but governance governance takes time and it takes money to organize that 13:48.560 --> 13:54.880 if you have a single company that is making all the decisions like perhaps like whichever 13:54.880 --> 13:58.960 whichever content management system runs the majority of the web for instance whichever one that 13:58.960 --> 14:05.600 might happen to be if a single benevolent dictator for life is is managing that project 14:06.560 --> 14:12.800 bad shit can happen and we need to be investing in supporting those those communities that have 14:12.800 --> 14:19.440 good infrastructure to make sure that if somebody has a midlife crisis that they don't do silly things 14:19.440 --> 14:24.400 because they have the power to do silly things not that that happened because I said nothing 14:26.960 --> 14:31.920 so I did want to also touch on AI because how can you not talk talk but AI 14:32.480 --> 14:43.920 so the I think that that if not open AI unfortunately but if you look at boss AI if you look at 14:43.920 --> 14:51.520 truly open awaits open models if we look at open communities that are driving AI there's a lot of 14:51.520 --> 14:56.640 potential and there's also a lot of challenges especially for maintainers I think that we haven't 14:56.640 --> 15:02.800 thought about like as more and more people get involved in using AI to create changes and modifications 15:02.800 --> 15:08.400 to code bases we're putting additional pressures on maintainers to review those so we need to be 15:08.400 --> 15:12.720 thinking about how do we provide additional supports because there's going to be more AI 15:12.720 --> 15:17.360 shop coming out that needs to be reviewed to see if it's any good if it produces additional 15:17.360 --> 15:21.360 problems and so we need more people looking over the code that is going to be coming in because 15:21.360 --> 15:25.920 it's so much easier to produce code the problem is not producing code these days it's it's 15:26.720 --> 15:31.680 editing it it's it's producing it it's evaluating it to see that it maintains that it has 15:31.680 --> 15:39.680 continuity over life and again we need to be thinking about that a couple examples that the 15:40.800 --> 15:46.160 I think that that if you're if you're acquiring upstream contributions it can be quite useful 15:46.880 --> 15:51.440 you can in your contracts you can require there to be a public repo in day one 15:52.000 --> 15:56.000 you can include license information read me information you can put the service stuff into your 15:56.000 --> 16:01.360 contract you can encourage them to have a contributing dot MD file in there they're open repo to 16:01.360 --> 16:05.760 encourage people to engage contracts can be set up this way not only to encourage companies that 16:05.760 --> 16:10.880 of a history of contributing to open source but also require it as part of the contract 16:12.240 --> 16:17.120 and you can also just you know potentially provide it an escrow so that you're holding back a 16:17.120 --> 16:22.160 certain amount of the contract until all of the work is contributed up is easy to 16:22.160 --> 16:26.320 contribute upstream or is released like there are innovative ways that we can use 16:26.880 --> 16:34.640 contracting vehicles and contracting language to be able to do this so we have you know different 16:34.640 --> 16:40.880 deliverables that we can look at and I do like the the the example I think the French 16:41.040 --> 16:47.280 police force the John Deere have have have had a contracts in the past with a they say 16:47.280 --> 16:53.120 everything it must be 100% standards compliance and at the end of the contract we need to have 16:53.120 --> 17:03.600 complete control over the software to go to do whatever we want and so there's things like that we can 17:03.600 --> 17:08.320 do there's holdbacks to try and make sure that that you know maybe it's one or five percent of the 17:08.320 --> 17:14.160 the repo is held back until things are released or has a continuous integration process as 17:14.160 --> 17:21.120 part of it that that is open we can we can look at defining maintenance as at on an option 17:21.120 --> 17:29.200 years that there's there's a the an SLA to to encourage those upstream contributions I do want to go 17:29.200 --> 17:35.920 from and also touch on like this is a huge change for the procurement industry like procurement agents 17:35.920 --> 17:41.520 have a there's a we're asking a lot for them to think about how their workflow works and how they 17:41.520 --> 17:45.840 think about technology and how they're there's a lot of demands for procurement officers in a very 17:46.960 --> 17:50.640 sensitive they need that we're asking them to to to learn quickly and move to to be able to 17:50.640 --> 17:55.120 adapt to the rate of change that we're that needs to be done in order to do this but we need to train them 17:56.080 --> 18:00.880 civic action services involved in a procurement program providing a procurement program to the 18:00.880 --> 18:07.200 US federal government called die-tap which is an education training program and we've we've updated 18:07.200 --> 18:12.560 most recently last year and we have a procurement guide that we've released of their open source 18:12.560 --> 18:18.080 license and and we want to be able to to show that with the world have people learn from it and 18:18.080 --> 18:25.840 critique it and adapt it to their own countries it is it's all available on GitHub and we can start 18:25.840 --> 18:30.480 to embed you know best practices and share best practices is quickly as possible across boundaries 18:30.480 --> 18:34.320 because there's a lot of work that needs to be happening happening over short period of time 18:36.720 --> 18:40.720 everyone here know this phrase what's the next line are there a lot of please 18:42.080 --> 18:48.640 yeah okay good good just wanted to check so the procurement is often overlooked 18:49.280 --> 18:52.400 it has to be something that we're we're being more intentional about 18:53.200 --> 18:57.120 it is the most powerful powerful lever we have to sustain open source 18:58.080 --> 19:02.160 procurement controls it's like it's where the money where does the money flow in our economies 19:02.800 --> 19:09.040 we can help direct that so it's not going to big American IT companies which affect everyone 19:09.040 --> 19:16.640 including the US government is paying a huge tax to these these big big multinational corporations who are 19:17.600 --> 19:20.080 sucking a great deal of money out of out of the economy 19:21.040 --> 19:26.000 we need to be thinking about recurring revenue recurring contracts predictability 19:26.880 --> 19:33.520 and to to think about the the building up these these open deliverables that that encourage 19:33.520 --> 19:39.520 reuse of technology small policy scales or policy changes can really scale for 19:39.520 --> 19:45.200 first sustainable investments to be do it correctly I wanted to talk a little bit about the 19:46.080 --> 19:51.680 the Netherlands Ministry of Health their their the open source ambition ladder but it really 19:51.680 --> 19:56.080 makes a lot more sense to just bring up the author so if we bring up Maurice Hendrix to go off and 19:56.080 --> 20:01.440 talk a little bit about about the work that he's doing with with encouraging open source in 20:01.440 --> 20:03.520 the Netherlands that would be the easiest way to do this 20:09.920 --> 20:12.960 that's a microphone work yes okay great 20:13.360 --> 20:19.360 I work for a Ministry of Health well for sports I'm the open source expert at the Ministry 20:19.360 --> 20:29.040 and been doing open source procurement for the last few years and not on the 15 million contracts 20:29.040 --> 20:36.480 but 15 million if that's okay for you guys still and what I've seen about around open source 20:36.480 --> 20:42.400 in government is that most procurement experts really love to do open source they would love to 20:42.560 --> 20:48.320 take this into practice but I've also noticed that no one actually understands exactly what 20:48.320 --> 20:55.200 open source is or how we can put it into practice and that's and that's something where we as 20:55.200 --> 21:01.680 also as a community should partner up with with government because from the idealistic side of things 21:02.320 --> 21:09.600 I hear here government say okay but if we procure open source then somebody in Canada 21:10.240 --> 21:15.120 from a group of community can have a say in what a software should do and we lose open scroll 21:16.080 --> 21:21.520 and we all know that that isn't true but it's something that's in the beliefs of people in guide 21:21.520 --> 21:26.960 that don't know open source as we do and it's the same thing that people think okay if we want to 21:26.960 --> 21:34.240 do open source and everything has to be in public from day one as Mike said maybe and people can 21:34.320 --> 21:40.560 participate and we lose all control and that's where I started with the ambition letter 21:41.520 --> 21:48.000 I had these stocks with procurement experts with team leads and I just had a talk okay this 21:48.000 --> 21:51.840 what do we want to do do you want to have these companies partner up and cooperate 21:52.240 --> 21:58.000 I do you just want to have them work on a single roadmap individually do you want to have them 21:58.000 --> 22:03.520 publish from day one work openly fully open source or do you want to have them publish all the 22:04.480 --> 22:12.560 works at the end so and if you have that talk internally then this becomes an ambition letter out 22:13.440 --> 22:20.400 by itself so I said okay at number 10 it's what we all want from the idealistic side that's not always 22:20.400 --> 22:27.520 realistic and on level one it's at least a step having things published at the end of a procurement 22:27.520 --> 22:36.480 is at least much much better than we have now what I did I opened up the idea that just the 22:36.480 --> 22:43.040 talks that I had internally I opened it up put it on the internet and all stay community of experts 22:43.040 --> 22:53.600 can you please help me build this thing into an instrument so Mike is traveling the thing 22:54.240 --> 23:03.120 this is one and the other one this one is also cool but I sorry I'm not 23:04.240 --> 23:13.600 someone's here with most yes oh yeah but it's so I work in hack and D it's it's marked 23:13.600 --> 23:19.920 down and it's also a usual friendly way of again people to participate not having to create an 23:19.920 --> 23:25.600 account and it works well in my get up workflows and this is a call out to you guys as well 23:25.600 --> 23:32.720 I translate everything into English and I really would love to participate with anyone so the idea of 23:32.720 --> 23:41.600 the instrument is that I help people in the Dutch procurement practice to think about what you would do 23:41.680 --> 23:51.040 or the choices you have so like with transparency and as this the right one no are you in your 23:51.040 --> 23:57.600 mouse music click yes yeah so it actually says there so in your descriptive document from a 23:57.600 --> 24:03.120 procurement you can have a talk inside the government or inside your team what do we want with open 24:03.120 --> 24:08.400 source do we want to publish all source code after completion of the tender is that what we want 24:08.560 --> 24:17.040 and then you can use these requirements in your procurement to do so or and for you guys I've made 24:17.040 --> 24:24.080 it into a div kind of a few the sentences change do we want to publish the source code that 24:24.080 --> 24:29.760 fixed intervals or at key moments or at the end do we want to have fully open source development 24:29.760 --> 24:36.880 of the source goes throughout the procurement and these choices have been set out throughout 24:36.960 --> 24:43.520 all the different levels that open source can deliver so that it enables the dog inside of 24:43.520 --> 24:49.200 government inside of these procurement teams okay everyone to apply open source what are the actual 24:49.200 --> 24:55.920 choices we have and how can I cut and paste these lines inside the requirements to companies 24:58.720 --> 25:06.560 the other one same thing I did an open source licenses in that review and I've all kinds of these 25:06.640 --> 25:15.840 instruments so also build fully open source thank you it says what I often see in the Netherlands 25:15.840 --> 25:23.120 is that we are using the ELPL open source license because it's the ELPN union license and if we see 25:23.120 --> 25:29.760 open source as a strategic policy instrument then that's not enough the licenses have value in what 25:29.920 --> 25:39.760 they say but if I ask to developers okay what do licenses actually say not much not much people 25:39.760 --> 25:49.760 have a clue so for example the ELPL is super cool on the software as a service lines so it has 25:49.760 --> 25:55.280 the same software as a service lines as the AGPL has but not being a strong copyleth license 25:55.360 --> 26:01.680 and not having the viral aspects not many people know that and even if you partner up to ELPL with 26:01.680 --> 26:07.840 the GPL then you have the same coverage of size with the GPL I have made a document with a 26:07.840 --> 26:14.560 Patricia Emmanuel the author of the ELPN Commission that explains the most common open source 26:14.560 --> 26:20.560 licenses in a user-friendly way so that even maybe not your mom or grandma knows it but at least 26:20.560 --> 26:26.160 everyone in the audience can understand so they can use open source licenses for the strategic 26:26.160 --> 26:35.120 instruments they are as well this is online fully open source ready to participate in ask questions 26:35.120 --> 26:42.240 and it's it's without everything I do I translated in English I can I can get help not only for 26:42.240 --> 26:47.760 might and actually English translations because I use January to do the English translation for me 26:47.760 --> 26:54.320 but help me with that translated in French translate in Spanish whatever and make this the promises 26:54.320 --> 27:00.800 also of open source collaboration in policy that would show my colleagues that open source 27:00.800 --> 27:07.440 actually works also for them that's it thanks do the people oh sorry a couple more things in 27:07.440 --> 27:12.400 lessons of course we have a couple more quick slides I have a you have a slide just a couple more 27:12.560 --> 27:22.000 I'm not much just just a very very so that one there's a list of handouts that people can 27:22.000 --> 27:31.360 see and you can't click on those links of course but you can get to the slides there if you 27:31.360 --> 27:36.160 scan a QR code and you can also find my contact information up here if you want to reach out to 27:36.160 --> 27:46.880 me there but does anyone have any questions yes so I'm here question for noise oh my oh sorry yes 27:49.440 --> 27:55.040 yes before we go into questions which we have five minutes for questions if you like to stay 27:55.040 --> 27:59.200 seated until we're done because otherwise it becomes too noisy if you really have to leave please use 27:59.280 --> 28:11.680 that door because this one squeaks so thank you very much for your presentation and for your work 28:13.280 --> 28:20.720 I would like to know if you have set up a forum to discuss these procurement things 28:20.960 --> 28:29.520 a forum a discourse or otherwise what organizations do I can to host that forum 28:31.040 --> 28:34.560 otherwise I would do it for you 28:38.880 --> 28:45.440 so are there any forums to discuss this is anyone is anyone aware of places to to take these ideas 28:45.440 --> 28:51.280 and and build on them to make them go further and and I don't really know of any there's 28:51.280 --> 28:56.000 little pieces like there's some places in the dribble community there's individual people but I 28:56.000 --> 29:01.040 don't know of any broader discussion about public procurement oh actually there's a political so I'm 29:01.040 --> 29:06.160 also quite involved in a political and if there's how many guvies are here government employees 29:07.040 --> 29:12.960 okay you're not going to get me to play anymore John as if you are a government employee or 29:12.960 --> 29:20.640 having the government employee apolitical dot gov does sorry apolitical dot co does have an opportunity 29:20.640 --> 29:26.080 for people to go off and discuss discuss play things there for government employees but more 29:26.080 --> 29:32.560 you still have any ideas um the the EU website join up also has a platform so I have the the English 29:32.560 --> 29:39.600 one about license I've posted it's on join up so there's a link and Mike knows my links as well 29:39.600 --> 29:46.400 I should partner up with Mike and he will transfer all the links to you guys just looking at David here's 29:46.400 --> 29:51.840 well and the chaos community also probably there's a chaos slack that that might have a camera 29:51.840 --> 29:57.200 with some procurement section but there could be something that procurement slack but no okay thank you 29:57.920 --> 30:04.400 any I which you please move into the screen so I can see your lovely t-shirt 30:05.360 --> 30:12.240 hey this is I'm not in for matrix so just to jump on the points and the question just now there 30:12.240 --> 30:19.280 is quite a bunch of effort happening in terms of more lobbying angles so if you talk to people 30:19.280 --> 30:26.880 like Apple OSBA all these kind of open source organizations they're talking a lot to directly 30:26.880 --> 30:32.960 to the governments if your project selling to governments like we are then that's also where we 30:33.040 --> 30:38.000 try to push it but the more projects who are in touch with the governments directly are pushing this 30:38.000 --> 30:44.960 idea like mandate the upstream funding in your procurement frameworks is definitely interesting 30:45.920 --> 30:52.080 and yes today there were yeah basically it's getting more and more talked about to European 30:52.080 --> 30:56.640 Commission European Parliament they're sitting on stage saying we need to find ways to force 30:56.640 --> 31:01.280 upon source by procurement and we need to find ways to get the money into the upstream so there is 31:01.360 --> 31:08.320 definitely stuff going on and yeah so also I'm part of the European 31:08.320 --> 31:14.080 Pensorz Academy and we are trying to work on this as well from that angle so happy to help 31:14.080 --> 31:20.720 as an answer yes and we are we partners partner with the Dutch open source business lines a lot 31:20.720 --> 31:26.320 that we we have learned a lot from each site and we will I will be talking that tomorrow in a 31:26.320 --> 31:32.080 better discussion with Apple as well and what I'm trying to bridge here is it's not only 31:32.080 --> 31:39.680 having the the political talks about okay what should we do and then I've been doing procurements 31:39.680 --> 31:46.880 by helping procurements myself and actually hearing what these people have issues with 31:46.880 --> 31:52.640 and trying to deal with that knowledge gap so that that the bridge between strategic policy and 31:52.720 --> 32:02.480 operation gets govers we have time for one more question I heard it Apple and not April and so 32:02.480 --> 32:09.200 like I was like Apple does nothing to open source but it's a strategy good more data point really 32:09.200 --> 32:14.560 you're just to give people a sense of scale the combined total of all silicon valley venture 32:14.640 --> 32:24.960 capital funding combined in 2025 it was 990 billion with the B by comparison US federal government 32:24.960 --> 32:38.080 software purchasing was 103 billion and the EU in 2022 is 170 billion euro in IT there a small 32:38.080 --> 32:43.920 fraction of any that will make a maintainers life happy as they say it really important this is a big 32:43.920 --> 32:47.840 big deal a billion here a billion there so you're something you're sitting on your talking real 32:47.840 --> 32:56.480 money I think I got around 40 million to open source developments by doing the procurement by defaults 32:56.480 --> 32:58.480 open source and the Netherlands